Episode 620 | Finding SaaS Ideas, Customer Pain, SaaS Metrics, and More Listener Questions

Rob Walling: The third most important metric in SaaS is churn. Churn can be the death of SaaS. Net negative churn is also the cheat code of SaaS. It’s a power up. It’s a cheat code. However we want to classify it, having net negative churn is an incredible, incredible business hack when you have a subscription business.

Welcome back to another episode of Startups With the Rest of Us. I’m Rob Walling, and I’m going to dive into listener questions today. We’re going to cover SaaS business metrics. Talk about customer pain, choosing that and ways to handle it well. And talk about how to find a good SaaS idea. And then we might even get to the question about transitioning a task level thinker to a project level thinker. Before we dive into that, MicroConf Europe tickets are still on sale. We just have a few left. It looks like we are going to sell out. We have a limited capacity this year. It’s in Malta at the Intercontinental Malta, November 15th through the 17th. Head to microconf.com/europe if you want to join me and other bootstrap, then mostly bootstrap founders. The co-founder of Lemlist, who has bootstrapped his company to eight figures in ARR is one of our speakers, as well as myself and a few others. Head to microconf.com/europe for all the info and to pick up your ticket.

If you want to ask a question to have myself or a guest answer it on this podcast, head to startupsfortherestofus.com, click ask a question in the top nav, or just email it to questions@startupsfortherestofus.com. I love audio questions and video questions, but we’ll answer text questions as well. So let’s dive into my first one. First one is what are the SaaS business metrics that matter the most and why? And so if you were to force me to pick, let’s say two or three metrics, the first one has to be MRR. MRR shows where you are. On the journey from here to there, 5K MRR, 50K MRR, 500K MRR, it shows where you are on your path to growing a company. Second one is month over month growth rate. And you can look at it as a percentage or as an absolute dollar amount.

I like to look at it both ways. I like to look at the absolute dollar amount, because that’s something that I can directly control. And it’s something that if you have a repeatable funnel with the same amount of traffic coming to your website and the same conversion rate, the same conversion to trial, to paid and churn, you can have a pretty predictable month over month growth rate of an absolute dollar amount of 1,000 MRR, 5,000 MRR. And frankly, if you look at the percentage of that as you grow, your percentage month over month growth rate will decrease over time. Because if you’re doing 5,000 a month, a $1,000 growth rate is 20% growth. But by the time you’ve grown to $20,000 a month in MRR, 1% growth rate is 5% growth. So your growth looks like it is declining, and on a percentage basis it is.

But to me, if I’m a mostly bootstrapped founder, growing at 1K or 5K every month predictably, repeatedly, say it’s 5K a month and I’m at 45, then I’m at 50, 55, 60, 65 70, all during that time, my percentage is going down, but that’s still an amazing business. It’s an incredible business. So I look to look at the absolute dollar growth rate because it’s a realistic picture. Dollars are what I can spend to hire. Dollars are what cause me to grow. The percentage is almost, it’s a second order thing. It’s then comparing it to where my monthly recurring revenue is. That’s really what it is. And it’s fine, you can look at that too. And do I want to keep a constant rate of growth or an accelerating percentage of growth? Of course. Of course you do. It’s very, very hard to do. And I think seeing both month over month dollar amount and percentage and looking at both of them, I think can be helpful.

So those two metrics for a SaaS company are what I would call North star metrics. Now I’m going to go through my three high, three low framework, which is where I have six metrics, and you want three of them to be high and three of them to be as low as possible in essence. And really the third most important metric in SaaS is churn. Churn can be the death of SaaS. Net negative churn is also the cheat code of SaaS. You’ve heard me talk about net negative churn here. It’s a power up. It’s a cheat code. However we want to classify it, having net negative churn is an incredible, incredible business hack when you have a subscription business. It just means that as your customers use your product and get value, they add more subscribers, they add more seats, because your pricing has been structured intelligently that as they get more value from the product, they pay you more. That negative turn.

That’s actually called expansion revenue, and we’ll look at that in a minute. But that’s net negative turn. So churn is both the death, but also an amazing cheat code for SaaS. And it’s the first of the three low. Churn, you want to keep as low as possible. If you have 2% churn for a bootstrap SaaS company that’s 2% per month, you’re doing amazing. That’s great churn. 3% is good, and 4% is fine and 5% is not great. It’s okay. But look, once you start looking at 5 or 6% churn, you’re churning half to three quarters of your entire customer base every year. That means you need to be replacing them just to keep your head above water. So 5% a month doesn’t sound that high, but it’s not great. It’s not great churn like 2% is. And then once you’re up at the, you get 7, 8 and above, it’s kind of business on fire. This is where in the span of six months, nine months, your entire business is turning over.

And unless you have a massive, wide funnel and just a huge number of incoming leads, you’re going to plateau pretty early. Usually high churn is due to low price point, customers being more consumerist, or VSMBs, very small businesses where they’re extremely price sensitive, and they cancel, or they go out of business, or they just decide they don’t need your software and they replace you with a Google sheet because it can save $20 a month or whatever. So churn, we could do entire podcast episodes. I have an entire section of my next book. My next book is a spiritual successor to Start Small, Stay Small, which is my first book. And it really is the path of once you have some type of product market fit, getting to seven figures in recurring revenue, building a seven figure, a million dollar, multimillion dollar SaaS company. And I have an entire section on churn and how to think about it. And it’s so important.

When I say it can be the death of SaaS companies, it is the death of many SaaS companies. It’s true. And churn is also an indication of how much product market fit, or it can be an indication of how much product market fit you have. So that was the first of the three low. Cost to acquire a customer, something you want keep low. But it’s a bit paradoxical. You don’t want high cost to acquire a customer it’s C-A-C, or CAC, as we’ll say. You don’t want a high CAC. But at the same time, if you can spend more to acquire, if you have the budget, if you have basically the annual contract value to support high CAX, then you probably should spend more if it can allow you to grow faster, if it can allow you to find better customers and it allows you to do more marketing approaches. I have looked at all the B2B SaaS marketing approaches that exist, and give or take there are about 20. There are not hundreds. There’s about 20.

Some of that is high level grouping, like SEO or organic search is one. And you could think of organic search in Google, in YouTube, WordPress plugin repository on Amazon. So there’s more approaches. But in terms of generalized B2B SaaS marketing approaches, almost exactly 20 in my experience that I have listed out and I talk about. And when you can only spend $100 to acquire a customer because your monthly fee or your annual contract value are so low that that’s all you can afford, then you can do two or three, maybe four marketing approaches, and the rest are too expensive for you. And then when you have kind of a mid-level annual contract value, let’s say you’re at 5,000 to 10,000, you can do about, I think it’s 9 or 10 depending. And then when you have a cost acquire of 20,000 or more, and maybe even 15 or whatever, you can do almost all of them. You can do in-person events. You can do cold outrage. These are things that are really time intensive and inexpensive.

And so your cost to acquire, while you want to drive it low, the higher you can push it, the faster you will grow. And realize that if you are in a position where you want to sell your company at some point, whether it’s this year, three years from now, any acquirer who’s going to buy a SaaS company is going to value, most likely value growth over profitability. This is if you’re in seven or eight figures. If you’re selling to a value buyer who pays based on your net profit or your seller discretionary earnings, then of course maximize profit, keep your CAA low, do all that. But if you are building the more the ambitious bootstrapper and you’re looking to get to 2, 3, 4 million, maybe 10 million ARR before you sell, the buyers at that level, they’re not buying it for financial in almost all cases.

If you’re growing fast, they know that they can figure out profitability. SaaS is incredibly profitable. It’s an amazing business model. But growth is hard to come by. Profit in SaaS can be engineered. So that was a cost to acquire. And sales effort, you might think of this as sales cost, cost per sale, you want this to be low. And this is the difference between a low touch, mostly zero touch software funnel, like snappa.com has Chris Gimmer was on the show a couple years back talking about how, yeah, it’s just self serve. And the price points, I forget what they are, it’s 20 bucks a month or 30 bucks a month, so that you’re not going to spend a bunch of time doing demos and doing a multi demo close, versus sometimes your sales effort is months long, and maybe it’s a six call close, where you’re convincing a number of people at a Fortune 500 company to buy.

If you’re doing that much sales effort, obviously your cost to acquire goes up, your timelines for closing sales go up, you have to have a price point that justifies that. You cannot be doing five call closes over the course of several months and charging $100 a month. It’s just the economics don’t work out. The two. Businesses are different. You have to raise that price to 500 a month, 1,000 a month, 5,000 a month in order to justify a lot of the sales effort. And then the three high in this framework, remember three high, three low, so the three high are annual contract value, I’ve already talked a little bit about this, but this is how much you charge. And this dictates a lot of things. Usually the higher your annual contract value, the lower your churn. The higher your annual contract value, the more you can spend to acquire customers, which then gives you not just the ability to have more money and hire more people, but you can try a lot more marketing approaches because you can afford to experiment with them.

The second of the high metrics is expansion revenue. Touched on this earlier with net negative churn. But expansion revenue is when people get more value out of your product and so they pay you more. It’s something I talk about a lot. But expansion revenue is amazing. If I were to ever start a SaaS again, I would want expansion revenue. That doesn’t mean every SaaS can or should have expansion revenue. And there are plenty of great SaaS businesses built with minimal expansion revenue, but it makes it just a little harder. And lastly, referrals. You might think of this as virality. If you can build it in, that’s perfect. That’s the ideal way to do it. Referrals is when people are word of mouth referring you, and you can ask for those referrals. This is a hard one to engineer. This is not something that you can go out, and like you do SEO, you do cold outreach and you can kind of build that up in scale.

Word of mouth and referrals doesn’t scale per se. It isn’t usually something you as a founder can control, but it’s certainly something you want to encourage and you want to ask for, because having a lot of referrals is an amazing way, very low cost to acquire on referrals. My next question is from Devon. This was in MicroConf Connect. If you haven’t checked out MicroConf Connect, we have more than 3000 bootstrapped and mostly bootstrapped SaaS founders in a Slack channel, in a Slack workspace, I guess is the technical term. And head to microconfconnect.com if you want to be part of that. It’s a free community that we heavily moderate, and it’s a great conversation happening in there. So Devon’s question was, “I’m actively picking customer pain for my company’s segment, as opposed to competitor pain. Do you have any general observations about SaaS for non-technical customers?”

You probably heard me talk about this before, customer pain is when you have customers that are going to be maybe more difficult to sell to, more difficult to support. Competitor pain is when you have a lot of competition, but usually the customers are going to be more tech savvy. The worst is when you have both competitor pain and customer pain. I would personally probably not enter a market like that. But some amazing businesses are built with customer pain. You think any business that serves, realtors, probably a lot of legal software, serving construction firms. And it’s not just about being less technical, but I think that is a big piece of it. When I watch my mom use a computer, she uses it in a very different way than you or I do. And it’s almost a tentativeness that she’s going to break something by clicking a link, or just very uncertain and really can’t figure out what you and I would consider obvious UX paradigms, obvious things that happen in software.

And so picking customer pain, realize that. One is your going, no matter how good your UX is, you’re always going to have folks who don’t understand it. And you just need to admit that there’s a problem is the first step, and realizing that I can’t imagine you’re ever going to conquer that. The second thing is you need to be priced accordingly. When I think through the companies in TinySeed or in MicroConf who have customer pain, they usually have a lowest price plan around 150 ish to $200 a month. And frankly, their average revenue per account of the ones that I’m invested in, I’m invested in over 100 SaaS companies, they’re higher than that. The average revenue per account is 3, 4 or 500, because you need to justify all the time that you are going to spend to close a deal, that you’re going to spend to onboard and that you’re going to spend to support. Customer pain folks often want to be able to talk to you on the phone, and that’s something you’re going to have to figure out if that’s something you’re willing to do.

Not saying you have to, but I’m saying you’re going to get more requests for it than you will than if you were serving developers, for example. Live chat may work, but even again, if you were supporting my mom or my dad, they don’t type very well, for example, and so being on the phone is an easier thing. So consider that. Price point, as I’ve already said to support. I think you should have some type of concierge onboarding essentially that people can pay for, because if let’s say a realtor has a bunch of contacts in MailChimp or in some old system, they don’t know what a CSV is. They don’t know how to export that and then import it. And if there’s any problems with the import. You’re going to build an amazing import tool for CSVs, and someone’s going to figure out how to screw it up because it’s just what happens. When you don’t understand a paradigm, it feels overwhelming and complicated.

And so that’s the type of thing where if you build an internal tool, where even if the tool’s available in their account and it takes you 10 minutes to export, reorder some columns, upload, that can save them an hour of frustration. And so charging for onboarding, I almost think of it like almost product walkthroughs. Live documentation, I guess I would say of, hey, your setup and this is how you’re going to use this, I think is probably going to be worth your while. One more thing I would say, if you’re going to tackle customer pain, realize that a lot of these folks are not going to want to dig through a knowledge base. They’re not going to search and try to find a solution to the problem. They’re going to want one-on-one proactive help. And so I would consider having a weekly office hour, and whether that office hour, maybe that starts with a 10 minute demo, one feature in the app or one section just to get everyone on the same page, hey, this is how you send an email. This is how you prune your list, whatever.

And then it’s open Q&A and you do it as a group. There’s no one-on-one, unless you want to maybe you charge extra for a one-on-one support package where people can reach out to you, but you are then able to scale that in a way that can be difficult. It can be challenging if you have 10 people all wanting to do one-on-one calls with you. It’s possible. If you want to have a dedicated account manager, either that’s an add-on or you’re just expensive enough, you build that into your pricing. But I think thinking about doing group office hours or doing office hours in some way that allows you to help people in a scalable fashion is something that I would be thinking about. So it’s a great question, Devon. Thanks for asking and I hope that was helpful. My next question is from Paseedu on YouTube, and it’s how to find a good SaaS idea. This is a big question and it’s one that a lot of people ask.

I think the answer is there isn’t one way. There’s no blueprint to doing this. Everybody comes about ideas in different ways. What I would say is don’t think that this brilliant idea is going to jump out at you if you think about it long enough. I do have an idea notebook where I’m constantly writing things down that I’m thinking about, and sometimes I’ll go back through and be like, that was a genius idea. When I wrote, why C for bootstraps back in 2011, 2012, that’s what TinySeed became 7, 6, 7 years later. So that was definitely a winner for me, but a lot of ideas you’re going to have just aren’t going to be that good. So I think having a lot of ideas is one way to think about it. So many people get stuck at this phase, and I think analysis paralysis is just, it ties in, and I think you should probably move towards validating rather than getting stuck on this stuff.

One expression people throw around is scratching your own itch. And that just means solving your own problem or solving a problem you have. I don’t think that’s a bad way to go, but it’s not the only way to go. And in fact, I’m going to take a little tangent here, scratching your own itch is not guarantee for success. And in fact, people, I think ascribe a little too much importance to that, because I see just as many companies failing with a developer is scratching their own itch, founders scratching their own itch as when they’re not. I see no difference. And when I hear someone say that their success was because they scratched their own itch, but when you look at the company, it’s like, no, the success happened because you had an amazing network in this space and an audience, and you had $100,000 of your own money, and you hit a market that was expanding in just the right way with hated competitors, and you were able to piggyback on the success of another bootstrapper.

There was all these reasons. And you executed well, and you built a great product, and you marketed it, and you used your network and et cetera, et cetera. Those are the reasons why you were successful. Scratching your own itch was one decision that you made five years ago, and if you hadn’t done that, I still think you would’ve been successful if you had picked an idea that didn’t scratch your own itch, but that still had all those attributes. It had your unfair advantages that you could take advantage of, in essence. So I’m not saying don’t scratch your own itch. I’m saying don’t think that’s the only way to do it, and don’t think that is somehow some key to success, because the world is littered with indie hacker projects from people who scratched their own itch. And they were the one of one, they were the one customer that needed that. Did no validation.

And even if other people need it, are they willing to pay for it? Can you reach them at scale? There’s so many questions that you needing a product doesn’t prove, it doesn’t answer. The world only needs so many project management, bug tracking and to-do list applications. And so just before you scratch your own itch, I would consider really validating the idea. Drip was actually scratching my own itch, but I went out and validated it and figured out other people would pay for the initial version before we went and built it. So beyond that, one thing that I start with is what are my unfair advantages? Do I have an amazing network in a space? Do I have an audience in a space? Am I early to a space that I believe is growing? Then I would take advantage of those and I would limit the idea to take advantage of that.

And in fact, I didn’t do that for many, many years. Drip was the first one that took any type of advantage of my audience or my network. And it was the fastest growing and most successful software company I ever launched. And I think that was part of it. I also think that it was because I entered a fast growing space with hated competitors. I executed well. I had a couple hundred thousand dollars from HitTail being thrown off. And there’s a bunch of reasons why that was successful. So with MicroConf, we have the State of Independent SaaS Report where we survey between 500 and 1500 bootstrapped and mostly bootstrapped SaaS founders each year, and we ask them how they came up with their ideas. And we start with the assumption that you’re selling B2B SaaS, and so you’re solving a problem. Start with a problem.

And scratching your own itch is a problem that you had. But you can also find problems at your day job. Maybe it’s not a problem that you have, maybe it’s a problem the company has. You have to be careful with intellectual property here, but let’s put that aside for now. Problem at your day job. Problem of a spouse, a relative or a colleague. Poor customer experience that you yourself had. And this is how CodeSubmit was founded. You heard the founders here maybe six months ago, but they launched CodeSubmit out of the founder’s desire to never solve a contrived programming exercise during a job interview again. They didn’t want contrived, so they built these real coding challenges. It’s codesubmit.io. It was a poor customer experience, poor candidate experience. And those four things that I just listed, scratch your own edge, day job, spouse, relative, or colleague or customer experience make up, it’s like 85%, 90% of the respondents of how they came up with their idea.

So those are the ones that I’d be looking at. There are a few, one is I acquired the product, which is 2 or 3% of respondents. Then there was one, I copied a competitor, which I thought that was kind of interesting. And then there’s another one that’s very low single digits, 3%, 4% is finding a problem online. So it’s like Facebook groups, Cora threads, private Slack groups. It’s an approach you can take, it’s just not one that a lot of the indie SaaS founders take or have had success with, at least according to the data we have in the State of Independent SaaS Report. So those are some ways I’d be thinking about it, Paseedu, in terms of finding SaaS ideas. Last thing I’ll say is I talk about the stair step approach. If you haven’t Googled this, go to Stair Step Approach to Bootstrapping and read the article.

In it, I link to an article on rocket gems, where there are 60 plus SaaS app stores or marketplaces. So these are the Shopify app store, the WordPress plugin repository, the Chrome app store, Heroku, Salesforce. I’m sure Oracle has one. There’s this big list of app stores. And these are things that if you’re in a step one or step two and you probably shouldn’t build a full-blown SaaS, I would be looking at ways that I could take apps in one app store that didn’t exist in another and figure out ways to adapt them. This is Rip, Pivot and Jam from Dan and Ian on Tropical MBA. It’s not trying to be too clever, because I think people get really clever with their ideas and they want to build something just incredibly novel and solve just a problem that no one has a solution in search of a problem is the term for this.

And it’s the worst when you’re a developer. I did this 15, 20 years ago where a new technology would come out, and suddenly in the browser you could drag things in a web browser. Can you imagine? Oh my gosh. Ajax, Dynamic and DHTML, that’s a solution, so I’m going to go find a problem to try to solve with this. That’s not a terrible way to go, but I never found any problems with it because it was the wrong way to go about it. It didn’t start with a problem and then say, what’s the best tool to solve this? And coming back to this sentiment of being a little too clever, I think product people, and makers and engineers often do want to build something a little too novel. If you look at some of the incredible successful, whether they’re bootstrapped or not, SaaS products, a lot of them, what was Drip? Drip was an ESP that added automation.

There were already email service providers out there. They added automation a year after, two years after Drip did. There were already marketing automation providers. All the automations that Drip did, not all of them, but like 80% of them were accomplished by these larger enterprise tools. We were not being this massively innovative, I’m going to build something brand, brand new. But we did it in a way that was easy to use, we made it super approachable and we made it cheaper. So when everyone else was charging 300 to $3,000 a month, our lowest price was $50. So the entry level to get into email automation is what made Drip incredibly successful, is it just lowered that bar to entry. You didn’t need a $2,000 custom onboarding like a lot of our competitors did. You did not need a consultant to run it, which a lot of our customers did. You could use it yourself and you could pay that 50, or 100, or $200 and get a tremendous amount of value.

So the innovation was perhaps in the business model or in just bringing it to a new space and making it more approachable. There are tons of apps like that. Even the idea of taking a piece of software that’s generalized and making it more specific to a niche, like CRM software exists, where I’m kind of managing my list of customers and I’m doing sales. What about what the founder of Builder Prime did, where he said, “I’m going to make CRM software for home improvement contractors?” And that’s what he did. Builderprime.com. It’s a TinySeed company. It’s not some incredible innovation. I would call Drip a relatively boring business. I would call Builder Prime a boring business. And I don’t mean that as an insult. I actually mean it as a compliment when I say it. Boring businesses are great.

It’s not this constant sprint to stay ahead of the bleeding edge. You’re building a software that solves a desperate pain point for customers who pay you real money on a recurring basis. It doesn’t have to be any more complicated than that. So thanks for the question, Paseedu. I hope that was helpful. Last question of the day. I really liked this one, actually. It’s from Twitter. It’s from Noah Tucker. And they ask, “how can I assist an employee in transitioning from a task level to a project level thinker? I’d be super interested in any insights you have.” I had not thought of this question, but it’s an obvious and a really good one, actually. If you’ve heard me talk about task level, project level and owner level thinkers, it’s just a progression you’ll probably make during your career.

When I was young, I was a task level thinker. You could give me a task, I would do it really well. But I didn’t think at that next higher level where I could actually run projects, manage freelancers, get things done by a deadline, do a lot of complicated things. And then eventually you might transition, everyone doesn’t, you might transition up to become an owner level thinker, where you’re not just thinking about projects, but you’re actually thinking 6 months, 12 months out. You have vision and you’re executing at maybe an even higher level. So transitioning someone from a task level to a project level thinker, I think it’s something that in your career, if you’re a good boss, if you’re a good mentor, good manager, good leader, think you’re going to have to do this. And the way I would do it is I would look at my process for managing projects.

So if I do it in Google Sheets, or I do it in Notion, or Trello, I would then take my task level thinker and I would say, you’re going to manage your first project. And it’s going to be a super simple project. I’m managing projects with 50 or 100 steps. You’re going to have five. Here’s my Notion template. Here’s my Google Sheet. Here’s whatever tool I’m using to manage it and the thought process that I put behind it, so that I know who’s doing what, what the status is of everyone. Here’s how I get updates. Here’s how I track deadlines and report back. Here’s the system that I have so that I can function as a project level thinker. Because I’m going to be honest, most people, including myself, we don’t have it innately in us to do these things well, and so we need systems to help us do these things well.

And so I would show a task level thinker, here’s how I manage projects. Here’s the tool. Here’s the thought process. And now we are going to touch base together two times a week, five times a week, maybe it’s a daily standup where you report on the status. And we look at your task board, your Notion board, Trello board, and you show me where things are and who’s doing what. And that is to teach that person the discipline of they have to revisit and come back to these tasks over and over and over. Because if you’re managing freelancers on a project, oftentimes you’ll ask them to do something and then they just never report back. And so you need some way to close that loop and to get back to them two days, three days later, hey, pinging you again. Haven’t heard back. You’re trying to teach the good habits that you’ve learned as a project level thinker to this task level thinker.

And I would simply do it as almost an apprenticeship. Let me shadow you while you manage this relatively simple project. And something with five tasks or five steps is a great size. If you don’t have any small projects, I might look at grabbing a lower priority project, not making a project up, because that feels contrived, but looking at some lower priority ones that are just simpler and they can get on board. And then the next one has 10. The next one has 20. The next one has 50. And you’re mentoring them and teaching them along the way. And what you might find is some people, funny, I’ve talked about my mom twice on this podcast, but she used to say, “I’m great at doing tasks, but I just, anything complicated, and big processes and projects, that’s just not my thing.” And you may find that some people either don’t want to or just aren’t naturally good at it. Can’t follow the systems, whether you call it, they aren’t type A enough, whatever, whatever the term is, some people, that’s going to happen.

And you’re going to find that maybe they are amazing individual contributor, but they shouldn’t be a task level contributor. And that’s okay, as long as you have that role for them and as long as you know that and they understand it. But I think a lot of people that you hire will probably have a lot of not only aspiration, but talent if you’re hiring well. And you’ll see that you can, in fact, with a growth mindset in mind, teach someone to go from a task level to project level thinker. So that’s all we have time for today. Thanks so much for joining me. I’m at Rob Walling on Twitter. If we are not linked up, let’s do it. And this is at Startups Pod as well, if you want to see the weekly video that we tweet, which is usually a 90 second snippet from every episode. And a reminder, there still are a few MicroConf Europe tickets available. It’s in Malta, November 15th through 17th. And it’s microconf.com/europe. This is Rob Walling signing off from episode 619. I’ll be back in your ears again next Tuesday morning.