Episode 635 | Where Are They Now? Catching up with TinySeed Tales’ Tony Chan

Rob Walling:
If you love the smell of startups in the morning, you’re in the right place. It’s Startups For the Rest Of Us. I’m Rob Walling, and here we are diving into a Where Are They Now? episode. Today I’m talking with Tony Chan. You just heard his season just a month or two ago. TinySeed Tales season three wrapped in this podcast feed. But what most people don’t know is that the last time Tony and I spoke to record that final episode was eight months ago. So a lot has happened since then. But before we dive into that, I want to let you know about our next MicroConf local. I’m sitting down with Jason Cohen to do another one of our SaaS snapshots where I have a conversation, I ask questions, we hang out and we learn about what makes Jason Cohen tick, what makes him successful, and get all his thinking on all things bootstrapping and mostly bootstrapping.
The event is November 30th in Austin, Texas at the WP Engine Headquarters. If you’re interested, tickets are at microconf.com/locals. It’s going to be an amazing time. It’s a three-hour event. Part of that will be founder connections. We have a lot of socialization time for founders to meet one another. And then Jason Cohen and I will be sitting down for about 30 or 40 minutes and having that SAS Snapshot Fireside Chat. It’s just a couple hours the afternoon of November 30th. And if you are interested, tickets are at microcomp.com/locals. And with that, let’s dive into my conversation with Tony Chan.
Tony Chan, thanks for coming back on the show, TinySeed Tales slash Startups for the Rest Of Us.

Tony Chan:
Yeah, last time I saw you was at MicroConf.

Rob Walling:
April in Minneapolis. Yep.

Tony Chan:
Yeah. Yeah. And you’ve been busy with the European batch and the American batch and so on. So it’s been a while since we’ve chatted.

Rob Walling:
That’s right. And I’ve been attending a bunch of MicroConfs, but none in your area. But we’ve spoken since then for sure.

Tony Chan:
Here and there.

Rob Walling:
The company stuff. Yeah, just haven’t recorded.

Tony Chan:
Via Slack, async, various things. Rollercoaster ride of stuff that we’ve been through.

Rob Walling:
Okay. So yeah, to set the stage, Tony Chan, co-founder CloudForecast, TinySeed Tales season three. And that just went live. The whole season rolled out over the past couple of months. I mean it ended maybe a month ago. But for people who don’t know, we recorded that from about, it was like 20 months ago is when we started and we ended about eight months ago. So it’s been eight months since that last episode was recorded. And right after we recorded that last episode, you sent me an email, it was like a week or two later. You said, “Oh my gosh, this is such a rollercoaster. So much is different than the last episode.” Already things had changed

Tony Chan:
When we first started TinySeed, we got the seed money. I think even a little bit before then we started putting some pieces together to hire a first engineer. So I don’t even know where the time went. Everything that’s happened, it’s crazy.

Rob Walling:
It goes fast. Well, I mean one of the things you told me, again, within two, three weeks of recording that last episode, I believe you lost one of your engineers. She left, right?

Tony Chan:
Yeah, Katia left the company, I mean was on good terms and good for her. She was able to find some upward mobility at a bigger company where she can learn, probably where she felt that her skills can be developed a little bit further. I mean it’s hard at… And at the time it was three of us and we’re onboarding Arturo, our senior engineer, and we’re maybe hoping Arturo would help develop her a little bit. But I think she was looking for probably a bigger company, more structure. I mean we have some structures in place, but it is hard. A lot of it’s individual contribution of what you could do here at a bootstrap startup. So we were happy for her. I mean, we were sad, but it is what it is. It’s just part of the unexpected things that happened, and you just got to roll with it.

Rob Walling:
Yeah, cause that was the first episode of your season was talking about… You were just about to onboard and then episode two was like, she’s amazing, she’s doing great. And did you take it hard when she left?

Tony Chan:
I think we did at first. Well, I think we also saw it as like, wow, that’s opportunity costs on our side. We invested a lot in time in her in terms of onboarding her and getting her set up and such. But also across the year, she also did really good work for her. I think as founders you have to forget fast. You can’t hold grudges. We don’t want to hold grudges, we want to be good people. We were happy for her. We were sad personally, but also happy with the upward mobility that she was able to find. And it sounded like a really great opportunity, and I think we saw it more as positive. Great. She redesigned her own app. She refactored a bunch of things on the front end side, redid our whole front end and tailwind components in UI, and it set it up for success now, today.
And without the work that she did across the whole year, we would be in a lot different place at the moment with our app on the engineering side. And it’s really set up Arturo, our senior engineer, kind of almost like passing the baton. And he’s doing really well on his side. Then we back-filled one of his friends into Katia’s role and he’s done really well. Having her work and that foundation she placed has sped up our features and how our app looks a lot more professional, polished. Overall, I think that’s a good thing. So we saw it more on a positive light, just to sum it up.

Rob Walling:
Yeah. Because when the season ended, it was you and Francois, co-founders, and then it was Arturo and Katia. And obviously, Katia left. You just said that you’ve back-filled her position. Is it still four of you? Have you hired anybody else?

Tony Chan:
So when Katia left, Arturo was just starting, and he was a senior engineer and we saw that as a game-changing hire in which as an individual contributor he can spec out and do feature requests and build out features without having too much involvement from Francois. He can kind of take over things and lead the team in some ways. So when Katia left, he went through his Rolodex like, “Hey, I know two friends that might be interested in joining the company.” We ended up interviewing two people, and we hired one of the friends. We actually briefly considered hiring both of them, but I think what’s going on with the economic situation at the time with Ukraine and all that kind of stuff, we’re like, we should probably be a little bit more conservative on our cash. We just hired Fernando who started maybe two or three months after him.
So the last six or eight months, six to eight months and last few months, have been almost ramping up and getting into a good rhythm between Francois, Arturo and Fernando. And that’s been a big part of our focus of what things that we need to implement so that they can feel prepared, they can feel enabled. And also it’s put Francois a hot seat to make sure that he is organized on his side and that he’s planning things as well. So we ended up going with the base camp motto of shape up with a six wheat sprint, and that’s worked out really well for us so far in terms of getting into a rhythm of building out feature requests and having the engineers also feel that it’s a short enough period where they don’t feel stuck on a project for so long as well. But the rhythm of product features are going to ramp up, which is amazing to see, amazing to even give that news to our customers as well and what we’re building. And it’s kind of given us a way to be more organized about our product features and roadmap as well.

Rob Walling:
Three engineers and you. It’s a developer-heavy company.

Tony Chan:
Yes, I am solo.

Rob Walling:
And some of the things we talked about during the season were there was this constant push and pull of Tony’s doing too much but also something you were not looking forward to is having to give up control. Moving from a business to a company is a phrase that you brought up.

Tony Chan:
Yeah, so it feels good on the engineering side. That part is in a good rhythm as mentioned. That part feels like, hey there’s a lot of promise here with this. Because right now we have the first half of 2022 planned out, and a lot of this is all spec’d out or mostly spec’d out, and we have a good idea of where we want to go with our product based on our user feedback and the resources that we have with the six week sprint. The business side, not so much. It’s been challenging. I think last time we chatted we weren’t even discussing… I think we were discussing unlocking more on the SEO content side since that seemed like a promising channel. But I don’t think we discussed about hiring someone, right?

Rob Walling:
Hiring someone full time? No.

Tony Chan:
Right. I think we talked about agencies and someone, but we tried to hire someone full time.

Rob Walling:
Oh okay. How’d that go?

Tony Chan:
It went okay. We had to let the person go after 60 days.

Rob Walling:
Oh that’s not good.

Tony Chan:
Yeah. Seemed promising. I think these things are really hard. Nothing to do with him or him personally or his skills. It just ended up not working just to cultural and chemistry fit issues. I just could not get into a good rhythm with him with time zone differences as well. It just didn’t work out for me personally. There’s also the lack of… We thought that not having technical and AWS knowledge would not be as challenging, but it was a lot more challenging than we thought it would be. So overall, the person was decent, but we just could not think a scenario that it could work out after 60 days.

Rob Walling:
So are you going to try to backfill that role?

Tony Chan:
We’ve thought about it. We’re still thinking through it, how that could look. I think we’ve been taking a lot of the lessons learned from that. I have been able to find part-time writers that have knowledge in SEO and also knowledge in AWS that were former engineers that are interested in marketing to help us write content. So that might be a play for us where we just continue hiring part-time contractors. I still have to orchestrate that a bit, but-

Rob Walling:
Yeah, then you’re the manager.

Tony Chan:
I think what’s helped was having this person, and we’re working with this person right now. He knows about SEO. He knows about content marketing. He knows what to expect. He’s very proactive. That has been very helpful for us right now, and I think a lot of that was learning from our attempted hire. Honestly, if we didn’t hire and go through the pain of going through those issues that we ran into, I would not have been able to identify what we need. I would not have been able to identify the person we need to hire, whether part-time or full-time. I think we’ll be a lot sharper when we are ready to hire, when we find that right person to hire. I am on the lookout. I think there is a money issue with that too. These people are not cheap, especially needing the technical chops and the AWS knowledge but also interest in the whole economic pricing of AWS as well.
So it is challenging. I don’t think it’s impossible. There’s probably someone out there. But I do think that the journey of the last two years of SEO content… I know a lot more about SEO content today than I did two years ago. I think we will be sharper of who to hire, the culture fit. And these things are unpredictable. It’s really hard, especially when you hire somebody you just don’t know if it’s going to work out or not.
But I think it’s important to document everything possible. We had a 30, 60, 90-day plan, and it was not going to plan, and it felt like it was not a good fit. So I think having that was very helpful because then we were able to go to the person and have a very fair conversation on why it’s not working out and why things are not going the way they are. It ended up being very mutual on that side. We were very fair with the parting as well. Francois [inaudible 00:12:08]. If it does happen, we want to be fair as possible, like what is the fair thing to do on that side? So I think that was very helpful.

Rob Walling:
It is really hard to hire people when you are not an expert at the thing you’re hiring. It’s the unfortunate reality. I see non-technical single founders trying to hire that first developer, and it’s very tough. And so likewise if you’re trying to hire someone for SEO and a year or two ago you knew a small amount about it, it’s pretty easy to make a misstep there. And the more educated you get… I mean the pattern I see is either the founders learn… Usually the founders learn it. If we look across all the TinySeed companies that you know, most of the founders find one or two marketing approaches that they learn enough to implement and start to get the flywheel going, and then they start replacing themselves, either a piece of it… You know look at ScrapingBee with their content. You look at Ruben with his SEO, like starts off just doing a lot of it yourself and then you replace either pieces of it or you replace the whole mechanism. But by that point, you know it so well that it’s quicker. It’s easier. But it’s a budget thing. Right?

Tony Chan:
Yeah. What’s been helpful, I think there’s a few things that I think you hit the nail on it, is hiring out pieces of it. The writing part is a huge part. The strategy part is a huge part. I’m able to, with this new person, at least do 50% of it, hand it off to him, and he seems pretty knowledgeable on how to take it to the rest of the way, which requires me to not have effort other than reviewing his work afterwards as well. So I think that’s been helpful. And I think the other challenging part too is we’re bootstrap startups. And I think with bootstrap startups, time is one of the most important things you can have as a founder, time and the mental energy to work on things that you need to work on. And that generally means that you need to hire people that are mid-level senior. But those mid-level senior people are very expensive as hires.
And junior people, I think they’re… Some TinySeeds founders relish in working with people that are more junior level and they have SOPs and they have processes in place and all that kind of stuff. I don’t think that is something Francois and I are really good at, the process and all that kind of stuff. So I think that’s why Arturo has worked out really well is just the fact that he can contribute individually. We can do what we need on our side and kind of onboard him and he just takes it the rest away. It just makes your life, for me personally as a bootstrap founder, a lot easier because I have other things to focus on. Francois has a million other things. He doesn’t have time to manage someone. So I think that’s challenging too, is the funding part, the money part as a booster founder. It’s like you need to hire these people but you don’t have the money to hire. So I think that’s hard.

Rob Walling:
There’s a reason companies raise money. And I think back in the days when I was bootstrapping, and I still hear people say this, I don’t know what I would spend money on to accelerate growth. And then you had a certain point where you’re like, I know exactly what I would spend money on to accelerate my growth. And usually it’s hiring. Usually it’s hiring a more senior person than you could otherwise afford. When I was starting Drip, didn’t have much money, hired a lot of junior people. And that worked obviously, but it was tough. It was me training most of the people, and it was a lot of management and a lot of my time just maintaining the team. And if I had had a million in VC, venture funding, we would’ve moved way, way faster.
In fact, that’s what I saw once we got acquired, and then the company acquired us had 38 million in funding. I hired 10 engineers in 18 months. It was crazy. Our velocity was… It was so cool. And that’s just a luxury. And so funding is a tool. Funding is not great. It’s not the worst. Bootstrapping is definitely… I think it’s harder than it used to be honest because of the competition. But I also just think in general, it’s a different kind of difficult.

Tony Chan:
Yeah. I liken it to when you’re playing Doom, there’s nightmare mode, where building a startup, like bootstrap startup, is nightmare mode. But you get through it. Is probably one of the most satisfying things you can do, right?

Rob Walling:
Yeah. There’s pros and cons. You retain the control and you retain… And just for people listening, we know you’re mostly bootstrapped. So every once in a while… I know ScrapingBee published a blog post at one point or went to Hacker News and it was like, “How we bootstrapped to a million and a half ARR.” And people were like, “You didn’t bootstrap. You took a small amount of funding.” But look, venture capitalists, if you raise less than a million, you’re bootstrapped.

Tony Chan:
Right. And yes, the hundred thousand plus that we get from TinySeed, it is a significant sum of money, but it is very small compared to raising a million dollars. The magnitude is a lot different. Someone in our mastermind, Newscatcher, they got into YC, raised a bunch of money. And the six figures only got them so far, and they raised a bunch of money, and that’s exactly what they’re doing. They’re enabling the money to hire people to accelerate their growth and magnify their growth as well. The hundred thousand plus, it’s just a drop in a bucket. I think you tell us, try to spend that in a year, right?

Rob Walling:
Yeah.

Tony Chan:
Even less, as much as possible to test out things.

Rob Walling:
That’s one or two hires.

Tony Chan:
Yeah, it goes by fast. So people’s like, “Oh you’re raising money.” No, the order of magnitude’s a lot different.

Rob Walling:
Yeah, and what you can do with it and get accomplished I think is a lot different. Tony, in true TinySeed Tales format, you know that I always have the questions. Things you’re looking forward to, things that you’re dreading, all that stuff. So if we look back at the last eight months since we last spoke, what has been hard? What has been a thing you’ve struggled with?

Tony Chan:
There’s just so many things. I think it’s a combination of just instability. And I think that’s part of being part of a bootstrap startup, instability in terms of hiring, trying to get us into a good rhythm, finding people that can get us into that good rhythm. We mentioned with losing Katia, ramping up Arturo and then hiring Fernando. That’s a lot, that’s a lot of effort mentally as a founder, and we still have to focus on growing the company. On top of that, our revenue has been flat year to date, and I think the last time we chatted we were on the progress towards about half a million in ARR. And I think we were around 450k ARR at the time. But over the past six months we’ve had a lot of churn. It’s the first time in history of CloudForecast, and we lost our third largest customer decided not to renew their subscription.
It’s not like opportunities have not been there, but some of our growth drivers have been enterprise opportunities. And we like those because when you get them on annuals, they’re very solid ROI. They pay back really well, and they help grow your company really fast. Took a few Ls on those enterprise opportunities, did not close. Some were stalled because a lot of our product is selling up, meaning we work with engineering managers and they have to get approval from the whole team. Mentioned we had some churn as well. It was really hard to stomach. And all that, we just had to continue to run the business. Didn’t have a choice. I think that was really challenging because it was a lot of content switching, going from hiring, how do we continue to progress the business forward while we had all this other stuff going on in the background and seeing our revenue relatively flat.
So I think that was really challenging. It was a really rough stretch for us just to sit there and not watch revenue grow, and it was so easy to get discouraged and get into a funk and just give up. And I think that what makes founders like us different is the ability to learn from it, the ability to mentally move on, find people to chat with and people to check in on you to make sure you’re okay. And so much of what we do is such a rollercoaster ride. Literally, it’s setback on setbacks and setbacks. But how you respond and how you forget about it too is really important. And I joke with Tiffany, my wife. She’s a physician and she brings a lot of what she does at work home, and it’s really… She cares a lot, so it’s really hard for her to forget about her day, takes some time for her to unwind.
While she asked me about my day, I’m like, “I don’t know what happened.” Because I think that’s one of my superpowers, to be able to just move on and forget about it and just learn from it and just not let those setback just wear you down. And I think that’s the biggest thing is we were able to weather the storm a bit and just be able to learn from our mistakes, try different things. Not like we sat there and sat on our hands and did nothing. We definitely did some things to try to move the business forward, tested things out, and just try to be positive too. Our goal was we need to unlock Arturo and Fernando faster, and we needed to focus on that. Regardless of what was else happening on there, we needed to do that, and that was the most important priority at that time.

Rob Walling:
Yeah, I mean it sounds rough. Plateaus suck. They really do. And I mean, to your point, so much of being a founder is managing your own psychology. And so I think you’re a good example of that, potentially, of your superpower of being able to forget the day and to have a short memory of this stuff and just keep going.

Tony Chan:
And a lot of that… We kind of listen back to TinySeed Tale. Reflecting that, I felt like the discussion was managing the psychology and be able to chat with you openly about that, I thought that was really cool, was two guys be able to share our emotions as founders, be able to open up in what we deal with. I don’t think we as guys or even founders do enough of that with each other. And I thought that listening back to it, I’m very fortunate to have that space to be able to open up to you about that. And not only with you, there’s other TinySeed founders. I think that’s been the best thing is be able to chat with them openly about things and being very raw about my emotions and doing that because without that you just stew on it, and it just really affects you negatively.
So I think having the outlet and being able to pour out all those things and those struggles were really helpful for us to get through that. And to piggyback on what you asked was like what are we looking forward to? So we are back on the path of getting to half a million AR. The last two months have been really good. We closed two really big new enterprise opportunities on annual deals. One’s going to be our second largest customer, and the other one covered the one that churned. So there are some bright spots, and they’re bright spots that we’re seeing with our engineering team being able to move the way they are and the velocity that we’re seeing.
I joke it’s going to be scary good in terms of what they can turn out, and with Francois planning and that. So I think that’s going to be amazing to see. And we have a few renewals, and customers have already committed increasing their subscription value with us as well. So setbacks, but it’s three steps back. But you got to, as founders, just push one step forward, just keep pushing the boulder up the hill. And I think that is the most challenging thing to do is managing your psychology to do that.

Rob Walling:
Well, that’s good to hear, man. The fact that you’ve… second largest replaced the one that churned. Things may be looking up. And you know what, they’re going to look up just long enough for you to feel like you’re at the top of the rollercoaster and then guess what’s going to happen? Something else will happen unfortunately.

Tony Chan:
Yep, crashing down again. Yeah. And I think the funny thing is we closed a deal recently, and we had a small customer churn literally two minutes later. I’m like, “Come on.” Yeah, can’t catch a break. But I think that’s the beauty of enterprise opportunities is, especially if you can capture them on annual deals, you get that payback all up front, and in a snap of finger you grow your ARR 15, 20%. And whenever I talk to founders who just get started, I highly encourage them, how can you increase your prices? How can you tap into those bigger customers?
Because those enterprise customers, you can charge thousands of dollars, right? Five, six figure in ARR average contract value deals, and they are easy to work with. They provide great feedback to your product, and they pay back really well and they have solid ROI. So I always encourage fellow founders to, if there’s any enterprise opportunity play, go towards that. And it’s a learning opportunity as well. It took us two, three years to get to where we’re at with that area, but it was incremental progress and learning and getting feedback on features that we need to support those types of customers.

Rob Walling:
So I like that. We can kind of end on a high note in that things are looking up and you’re looking forward to the growth and everything. We’ll revisit. We’ll do another where are they now? here in… I don’t know. I bring Craig and Gather on once a year or something. It’s kind of fun just to revisit. But before we wrap this, I wanted to bring up… It’s a bit of a non-sequitur, but about a week ago you sent me a Slack. I would read it on… I don’t read your personal Slacks to other people. But in this case, I would read it. But in this case, it was an audio Slack.

Tony Chan:
It was a pretty late night. I might have been rambling a little bit. I don’t remember. I might have been distraught or something.

Rob Walling:
You sounded fine. But you were saying basically, AWS re:Invent, it’s put on by Amazon. It’s the biggest event, in person event, in your space, I’d imagine. This is the place that if you’re going to sell to folks using AWS and you’re going to do it in person is the place to be. And you had a conundrum. And what was that? What were you asking me about?

Tony Chan:
The conundrum was not going because I get to do whatever I want. I’m a bootstrap startup. I control my own destiny. I don’t need to go. Why do I need to go, right?

Rob Walling:
Because I don’t want to, right?

Tony Chan:
I don’t want to. I don’t feel like it. It did not seem like a good time. It’s a huge conference, like 60,000 people across 10 hotels or something like that. It’s overwhelming. It’s a whole week. So for me, I was thinking like, oh my gosh, this is going to be really tiring. It’s going to be drained. I’m going to be tired. It’s really hard to break through the noise, business-wise. Because the money’s not a problem. The tickets are $1,800. The hotels are 2,500. It’s whatever. However, on the marketing standpoint, if we want to break the noise, we have to spend a lot of money. And I think when Francois and I were talking about it, it’s going to be really hard to justify an ROI from it just because it’s a big conference.
However, I think after much discussion with you and with Francois, like, why don’t you go with no ROI expectations? Just go, have fun, network, make friends. What’s the worst that can happen? The worst is cool, spend a week. But at very minimum, I’ll get to travel, go to Vegas, meet some friends, meet some new people, experience something new, eat good food. And maybe that’s what comes out of it, and that’s okay. And I think just shifting our mentality a little bit on me going and doing things as well that I might not want to do was a big light bulb moment. Because I think a lot of the things I talk about with founders is sometimes you just got to do things you don’t want to do, and you have to do it. And I think you turned that question on me. What was your feedback?

Rob Walling:
It was kind of like I said, “I understand it because I don’t like big events either, and no one’s making you go. But I think you will get benefit from going either, one of you, and probably don’t attend the sessions, but just try to line up meetings, talk to existing customers, try to get intros.” And I talked a little bit about luck surface area, this concept of it just being in the mix, the number of things that I did that just turned into the next thing. I never would was going to be a business to software. And I ran into this guy Jeff Atwood at Joel Spolsky’s event. And I actually literally walked… He was a blogger and I was coding [inaudible 00:28:13] I was so nervous to introduce myself that I walked all the way out to my car. I was going to drive home. And I went, “I need to go back in.”
And I went back in and I was like, “Jeff Atwood, I’m Rob Walling, Software by Rob.” It was the blog at the time. And he was like, “I love that blog.” And we started talking, and he’s like, “You should speak at BOS next week.” And I was like, “What?” And that led to that, which led to… You know what I mean?

Tony Chan:
Yes.

Rob Walling:
On and on. All these dominoes fell from me doing something that I really didn’t want to do. Look, it doesn’t always work out that way. But I find going to in-person events, which is usually something I don’t want to do, even though I host them myself, it’s terrifying. And yet I have a tough time not imagining. You said leave the ROI assumption. Don’t think about it that way. I think there will be ROI by being there.

Tony Chan:
Yeah, I think the part that resonated me the most is the luck surface and a lot of the CloudForecast journey has been increasing luck surface, has been doing things that we don’t want to do and just putting ourselves out there regardless of how challenging it is or how difficult it is or what we want to do. And it has always paid off for us to a point where we’re at now.
And I think when you mention them, shoot, that’s been so much of our story. And me not going would be very hypocritical of me. And it’ll go back to the foundation of how we’ve built the company and what we’ve done, and the three times we interviewed for TinySeed and the multitude of failures of just dragging ourselves to IC interviews and chatting with people and just chatting with people and just trying to find people to talk with and having conversation with them. That’s so much part of our story. And I felt very backwards as I kind of thought through and reflected, like if I don’t do this, that kind of goes back to how we built the company and the foundation of the company. So I’m going now.

Rob Walling:
You’re going solo to Vegas.

Tony Chan:
Yeah, solo questing. And it’s just interesting of just being able to think through it, how quickly it switches. Now I’m excited to go. I can’t wait. Already hitting up some people, no expectations, just going to enjoy myself. There’s some customers that are going to be there, so trying to meet up. And I think you said it best, I don’t have to go to all the things, but just me being there will hopefully increase some luck surface, and we’ll see what comes out of it.

Rob Walling:
That’s a great way to end it, man. I’m glad you’re heading out and hope it’s worthwhile. Folks want to keep up with you. You are on Twitter @Toeknee123. It’s T-O-E, like the body part, K-N-E-E, like the body part, 123, and of course CloudForecast.io if folks want to see what you’re working on. Thanks for coming on.

Tony Chan:
Thanks Rob. Have a great one.

Rob Walling:
Thanks again to Tony for taking the time not only to record with me today, but to do the six recordings for the TinySeed Tale season. And thank you for coming back every week. Whether you’ve been here for six or 600 episodes, I really appreciate you spending time with me each week. And I do not take that for granted. I know that your time is valuable, and I always want to make the best use of it. As a reminder, we have a YouTube channel, microcomf.com/youtube, where you can hear from me even more each week. If 30 minutes in your ears each week isn’t enough, microcomf.com/youtube. Thanks again for hanging out. This is Rob Walling signing off from episode 635.