Episode 667 | Increase Your Exit Price by Decoupling Yourself from Your Business with John Warrillow

Rob Walling:
Welcome back to Startups for the Rest of Us. I’m Rob Walling, and in this week’s episode, I talk with John Warrilow, the author of Built To Sell, The Automatic Customer, and The Art of Selling Your Business. John also runs a very successful SaaS company called Value Builder that is aimed at business advisors and brokers. In my experience of this business world, John is one of the most knowledgeable people about real business exits. This is not Instagram selling for a billion dollars in a weekend. This is about software companies, agencies, manufacturing companies, e-commerce, just the thousands or hundreds of thousands of exits that are below the radar that are not on the front of TechCrunch and that are businesses that sometimes sell for multiples of EBITDA, or in the case of SaaS, often sells for multiple of revenue, but these are not 100X revenue. These are those realistic business exits. John has interviewed hundreds of founders over on Built to Sell Radio, if you’re interested in hearing more about that. But today, he and I dive in how to decouple yourself from your business by creating standard operating procedures.
I know you’ve heard this before. You should create SOPs. We know. So we go a little bit into why and how that can increase your exit multiple, but also how it can reduce your earn-out if you do decide to sell your company and how it can make your job as a founder easier while you’re running the company. We don’t just talk about theory though. We actually talk about this tool that he and his team have developed through a lot of iteration and a lot of customer conversations. It’s called VidGuide at vidguide.com. They’ve taken a really novel tact on it, not only how to create SOPs, but how to get your team to consume them. We dive into that topic for the next 30 or so minutes. John was previously on Startups for the Rest of Us in 2021 episode 532, The Art of Selling Your Business with John Warrilow. It is one of the most popular episodes of this show. If you haven’t heard that, it’s amazing.
John, since he is an interviewer, is a good interviewee because he knows what it takes to put together a good show. So without further ado, let’s dive into my conversation with John. John Warrilow, back for more punishment.

John Warrillow:
I just can’t get enough, Walling.

Rob Walling:
It’s so good to have you here, man. Thanks for taking the time.

John Warrillow:
It’s good to be with you.

Rob Walling:
Yeah. Most folks will remember your episode. It’s one of the more popular episodes of the show, came out about two years ago about building and selling an incredible business. I believe that was right around the time The Art of Selling Your Business, which was your third book, came out.

John Warrillow:
That’s right, yeah.

Rob Walling:
We touched on just a little bit of that. So you’re back and it’s to talk more about exits. Obviously, each of us learn things as time goes on and I’m sure you have some new stuff to share with us. The first thing I want to kick us off with is, so you’re John Warrilow. Most people know your name. You’ve written three books on how to sell a business and how to think it through and you have a successful SaaS company, SaaS application for advisors called the Value Builder. In addition, now you’ve launched another SaaS. So this is a lot, John. As someone who runs two companies plus a podcast and writes books, I know how much this is. Why did you need to launch? This SaaS is called VidGuide at vidguide.com. What was the impetus for that?

John Warrillow:
Well, there’s a very quantitative impetus and then more of a qualitative one. I’ll give you the quantitative one first and that is that for Value Builder, again, sales and marketing software for advisors, we have everybody, the business owners who use it take an intake questionnaire. There’s eight questions, talk about recurring revenue and growth potential. One of the questions is this thing called hub and spoke, which measures the dependence the company has on its owner that we’re assessing. It turns out that across all eight dimensions, the one that business owners score the lowest on is hub and spoke, so this idea that they can build a company that’s successful, that’s got recurring revenue, but if they get hit by a bus, the business stops almost instantly. That was the quantitative impetus, if you will. Qualitatively though, I had a more embarrassing story. When we got to, oh, maybe 20 employees for Value Builder, so this goes back three or four years ago now, we started to see problems in our own system.
At 20 employees is where you can’t have everybody reporting to the founder anymore. You’ve got to have some layers, this drip and so forth. I was noticing we were making silly little trivial mistakes all over the place, and oftentimes, they had knock-on effect. One example comes to mind. We use Salesforce for contact management and people would enter people’s names in all capital letters. So it’d be like Rob, capital R, capital O, capital B. So we’d be emailing these people yelling at them. So something that’s just so simple as to no, no, don’t put names in full capitals when you enter them into CRM. Again, that’s a trivial example. So we got the idea, okay, well, we got to create standard operating procedures. We got to create these systems. I actually hired a lady who was a Six Sigma Black Belt and very, very experienced in this concept of SOPs. She made the most beautiful binder of SOPs with flow charts. It was a full 8.5 x 11 binder full of these things.
I announced to our team, “Hey, we’ve hired this person. She’s made these amazing standard operating procedures. I expect everybody to use them.” I put it to bed thinking, okay, this is solved. We got it all cleaned up, ready to go. And three days later, of course, I see the same mistakes rearing their ugly heads. What I hadn’t realized is that the people who I’d asked to consume and use these SOPs were ignoring them. That was the impetus or the qualitative journey that I wanted to go on this and I’m trying to understand why were you not using the processes we wrote in these binders.

Rob Walling:
So you were trying to solve your own problem in software. It’s eating your own dog food or-

John Warrillow:
Scratching your own itch, yeah.

Rob Walling:
… scratching your own itch, which are fine. I think the majority of probably SaaS companies are started that way, but not the super majority. It’s usually like 50%, 60%. We actually surveyed the audience and scratching your own itch is fine, but a mistake I see folks make, especially developer, builder, entrepreneurs is I have the problem, therefore everyone does, or I have the problem, therefore it’s worth paying for and other people will pay for it. So there’s usually a validation step that I ask folks to do after that is, okay, you do have this problem. Can you find five, 10, 20 others who have it? Can you find out how desperate of a problem? Is it an aspirin or a vitamin? Can you find out maybe how much they would pay for it? That kind of stuff. There’s more research or validation beyond that.
I’m curious if you went through any of those steps or if given that you do have audience and you have reach into insights into a lot of companies, where you went from there. We have a problem. I know that I could probably solve this with software, but were there other steps you took?

John Warrillow:
Yeah. We talked qualitatively to Built To Sell readers. Built To Sell has a website and so we have people who’ve opted in to receive communication from us. We went to them and talked to them about, how do you think about standard operating procedures? What are your frustrations about SOPs? Do you use them? If not, why not? So we talked to and did surveys with both qualitative and quantitatively with the Built To Sell audience. We talked to a lot of people, past guests actually I’ve interviewed on Built to Sell Radio. I talked to them, particularly the SaaS founders, people like David Darmanin who I know think you’ve had on this show. I talked to Dave and others about what is it about getting employees to follow SOPs. What we learned was the world doesn’t need another SOP software.
There’s lots of great written SOP software out there. What we came to learn through the research was the problem was slightly different than we’d originally thought it was. What the research was telling us is that business owners knew they needed SOPs, that this was not a surprise to them. The problem they were experiencing was the same one I was experiencing which was they weren’t using the SOPs. They couldn’t get employees to use them, and that’s a slightly different problem than convincing business owners they need SOPs. We have a bunch of downloads on our website and we looked at the most popular. We have this thing called The Definitive Guide for Creating SOPs, I think is what the white paper is called, but it’s an e-book effectively and it’s along with 12 other e-books. It’s the most popular one in our suite of e-books. So that was again another sign that SOPs, in particular, getting them to work in a business was something our universe cared about.

Rob Walling:
All right. So it’s less about the software to build them, it’s getting people to use them. How did you solve that? What did you do different is really… I had a question written down that was like, why build another SOP creations piece of software? Because I can pick five or 10, I can hit Google. So what did you do differently?

John Warrillow:
Yeah. What we learned is that when we talked to employees and the owners of their companies as to why they weren’t using SOPs, it came down to two things. They were hard to find in the moment and they were hard to read when they accessed them. Hard to find is like my boss put them in a shared drive, which is what we did, by the way. At the time, I think we used Dropbox or Google Drive. I can’t remember. It was Dropbox at the time. We just put them in a folder deep into the file architecture, six layers in, and people just couldn’t find it. When they had a moment, they were actually talking to a customer, they couldn’t find it, and so they skipped the SOP. It’s hard to find. The second problem is that for a lot of us, it’s hard to read. I’m not a great reader. I’m a slow reader. I don’t know if I’m actually dyslexic, but I think I have a slight orientation towards dyslexia, which means that a written document for me is hard to follow. I can do it, but I need a lot of time.
So those were the two things we found out. So the idea that we came up with was to create Loom for SOPs. You think about Loom, we’ve all used it for sharing videos and so forth. Again, we came by this idea honestly, because in my own company, what I found out is when people had a problem, they weren’t referring to this giant manual that we’d spent a lot of money creating. They were recording a quick Loom video and just shooting it to the employee who needed it to know how to fix the problem. So here we are spending all this money on SOPs and yet we were bypassing them to ship little Loom videos. We thought, okay, if Loom works, people want video, it’s easier to consume and digest and metabolize video than it is written SOPs. So video works. What’s the problem with Loom? Well, Loom’s a great tool and it’s perfect for some things. However, what we found was that when you’re sending a Loom in an email, finding that Loom video weeks later when you need it again to watch back was difficult. It was, again, sifting through email.
So what we built is this thing called Flightpath, which means that you can tag a video to a piece of software. For example, if you’re trying to convince or to explain to your employee how to send an invoice out of QuickBooks as example, you can tag your VidGuide to QuickBooks, quickbooks.com. Then when your employee logs into quickbooks.com, the video pops up in front of them. It’s like right in front of them, which is what we’ve heard again and again, is that people value the in context idea of seeing it in context when they’re doing the work. So if you need to figure out how to send an email at a Drip as an example or build a lead page, whatever, you can tag the instructions to the actual software people are using. So that’s how we solve for and made it different than [inaudible 00:12:17]. It’s also got Step Builder. You’ve interviewed Arvid Kahl on this show, have you?

Rob Walling:
Mm-hmm, yeah.

John Warrillow:
Yeah. I interviewed Arvid for Built to Sell Radio and he was describing to me the sale of his company and to transfer FeedbackPanda, he had a one-hour video he shot for the buyer of the business, Kevin McArdle, and basically described how all of the code worked, the code base, how it all stitched together. I showed Arvid VidGuide and he’s like, “Man, if I had this, it would’ve been so much easier,” because the other thing we built is Step Builder, which allows you to basically take a one-hour video that you can shoot and break it into little mini bite-sized videos, create a process. So it’s, again, built from the ground up for creating and sharing SOPs.

Rob Walling:
Right, and it’s a video-first platform-

John Warrillow:
Video [inaudible 00:13:09], yeah.

Rob Walling:
… that focus on that, yeah. See, that’s super interesting. I remember you and I had a conversation at dinner at one point.

John Warrillow:
In Minneapolis, yeah.

Rob Walling:
Yeah. You were explaining VidGuide to me and my question honestly was, there are so many out there, how are you different? The spark moment for me was when you said, “If you’re teaching someone QuickBooks and they go to QuickBooks…” Because it’s a plug-in, right? It’s like a Chrome plug-in or-

John Warrillow:
It’s a Chrome plug-in, yeah.

Rob Walling:
It just says, “We have a VidGuide. We have a company VidGuide for this site.” That is the genius moment because then, I don’t have to ever think, where’s the Dropbox directory? Where’s the binder on my shelf, right?

John Warrillow:
Exactly, yeah.

Rob Walling:
Super interesting. So I’m curious. A lot of times, innovations like this, because you’ve obviously created a novel solution to this, so there’s two things that can happen when you think of a novel software solution. One is it’s ahead of its time, and people are like, “We’re used to doing it this way, and you’re asking us to change behavior.” Let’s talk about that first. I’m curious if that’s happened. Second thing that happens is the moment people say, “Oh, my gosh, that’s a great idea,” competitor copies it. Then you’re stuck with, okay, now I’m competing against them on brand and other things. It’s not that you can’t outcompete them, but a novel feature is only a novel feature until it’s replicated, right?

John Warrillow:
100%.

Rob Walling:
On the first one though, have you found that folks are resistant to it because it’s maybe different than the ways they’ve done it in the past?

John Warrillow:
Yeah, which is why we’ve moved to live onboarding. You can get a big guy to count for as low as 29 bucks a month. There’s different stages, depending on how many employees you have and so forth. But we assumed, okay, for that price point, we’ve got to do everything electronically. It’s got to be all digital onboarding, it’s got to be videos. Again, ironically because it’s a video platform, we really have found that it’s worth investing the time and doing a live onboarding. What I mean by live onboarding is basically a human being scheduled into a scheduling software where there’s a point in time where someone from our team jumps on a call with somebody else and says, “Tell me about your business. What are you trying to standardize? What are you trying to create processes for?” And it’s that, to your point, it’s the change in behavior. It’s the change of way of thinking of SOPs that’s required more heavy lifting than we thought.
It’s got us thinking right now, and I know you’ve talked about this on Startups for the Rest of Us a ton, it’s like do it analog first. Figure out how to get the onboarding right in a very high-touch way, knowing that it doesn’t scale forever, but it’s better to do it right upfront. We’d moved to full white glove concierge onboarding, which is expensive and time-consuming, but I think it’s working to solve the first problem. The second problem you raise is another good one we think a lot about, which is what happens when one of the other SOP software out there does exactly what we’re offering, which of course they all have resources to do, money and their venture back. Couple things on that. Our vision is to really be Loom for SOPs from the ground up. Everything we think about is really about internal knowledge sharing.
Unlike some of the other platforms where they might serve dual purposes, might be a sales enablement tool or for sharing things with your customers, we’re really saying, “No, this is designed for the ground up for employees.” What that means is that we’re always optimizing for that. So yes, somebody could knock off Flightpath, which is the little pop-up inside a Google Chrome browser, but we’ve got four or five other features that you wouldn’t really build unless you were building it for SOP. Again, I mentioned Step Builder, which allows you to take a long video and make it into little steps, swap it, [inaudible 00:16:48] re-record another video. All these things you probably wouldn’t do if you were just a screen recording software or just that SOP software.
Another one we thought about is, you have somebody new join your team. You want to instantly grant them access to all of the SOPs that correspond with their job description. So basically you swap out your bookkeeper for bookkeeper A to bookkeeper B. You want bookkeeper B to have all the stuff that bookkeeper A had access to, or you have someone new join your sales team, you want that new person to instantly have access so you can basically flip a button and then they’ve got access to all of the VidGuides that correspond to being a new salesperson in your company, for example. So it’s like departmentalized, which is again, something you probably wouldn’t do if it was just screen sharing software. Those are some of the ways that we’re trying to, I don’t want to say stay ahead of because I think they’re just different products and different use for different reasons, but if we just stay really focused in our lane, which is really about sharing standard operating procedures with your employees, then I think we’ll be okay even if other people match us on certain features, if that makes sense.

Rob Walling:
Yeah, and that’s how I’d be thinking about it too. Early stage entrepreneurs will come on this podcast and I usually ask them, “How are you differentiated?” Brand is included in that. Do you have a brand that’s strong enough to hold it? I feel like you being ahead of the market right now, we’re in a pretty good spot to defend that. We touched on it a little bit earlier about why SOPs, standard operating procedures are so important for a business, both while it’s running to keep the founders sane and if you go to exit. It makes such a difference. In terms of having a business that is just I have a SaaS business that’s doing several million a year and I have no SOPs versus one that is completely not reliant on the founder, do you have any experience or examples of someone who you’ve heard have a great success story because they were so SOPed up so to speak, or someone who had a really bad story because it was just completely reliant on them? Just any thoughts or examples. I know you’ve interviewed hundreds of founders.

John Warrillow:
Yeah. A couple come to mind instantly. Again, Arvid Kahl, who you’ve had, started FeedbackPanda. Many of your listeners know Arvid is a prominent guy in the community. He built FeedbackPanda and as I mentioned, recorded a video that basically showed the new acquirers how to run the business. I think if you ask Arvid, it was really more about how to get through due diligence, take a letter of intent to closure. Because of course when a prospect or an acquirer is at the due diligence stage, that’s when all the red flags get raised in their mind. It’s like, how will I be able to run this? How will this thing go when Arvid leaves? Is it going to continue? It really, I think, allayed the acquirer, got him to close on the deal and actually consummate the deal. I think that was helpful for Arvid. Another person, have you had Jodie Cook on the show?

Rob Walling:
Mm-mm.

John Warrillow:
Okay, Jodie Cook would be a great… She wrote a wonderful book called The Ten Year Career, but she would be good to get on the show at some point. But Jodie built a company called JC Media, Jodie Cook Media. The early days, she was a digital social media agency and it was all her and all the clients wanted her, a classic story of a service business where all the clients wanted her. She is a very independent woman and was like, “I don’t want to be the bottleneck here. I don’t want to be the client’s best friend for all of these clients.” So she started creating standard operating procedures and she got an offer to acquire her company. I believe, again, I’m going by memory a little bit, but I think the offer was somewhere around seven times earnings, but 60% of it was in an earn-out, meaning that Jodie was being asked to stay on in the future and hit targets in the future and so forth.
And Jodie’s like, “No, no, you don’t understand. I’ve created standard operating procedures. I built this business so it doesn’t depend on me.” The acquirer didn’t buy it, but she just doubled down on SOPs and she leaned even further into it creating a whole library of standard operating procedures such that she was really, at the time of her ultimate exit, not working in the business at all. She got an offer, premium offer, 100% cash at closing. The reason she was able to close without an earn-out is her standard operating procedures. Again, an earn-out is the enemy of any entrepreneur. We’re all entrepreneurial. We’re all independent minded. An earn-out is where you have the golden handcuffs and you have three, five years where you’re working for a company and it’s horrible and it can be horrible, I should say. Standard operating procedures can help alleviate, minimize the importance of an earn-out. It may not eliminate it completely, but certainly reduce the proportion of your proceeds that are at risk. It worked for Jodie and I think she’s another example that comes to mind.

Rob Walling:
Folks listening to this podcast love to hear about validating ideas, early experiments or mistakes that someone might make because we all make them. You and I emailed a little bit in preparation for this and you talked about, “Hey.” Look, John, I’ve made this exact same thing where it’s like I have an audience, people know who I am. I’m going to launch Drip at the time. This is 2013. Then I launched it and it did fine and then it just plateaued really quick. It turns out people were buying because they wanted to make me happier, they wanted to help me out, and we really hadn’t built something people wanted and it took about another 10 months of building-

John Warrillow:
Isn’t that interesting?

Rob Walling:
… yeah, before we launched automations, found product market fit. So I call it actually the curse of the audience where it’s this counterintuitive thing of I have 50,000 people, however many I have on an email list. If you email them and said, “Hey, I’m going to build this thing, would you use it?” a lot of people will say yes, a lot more than would otherwise say yes if you didn’t have that audience. So you can get these noisy or just incorrect signals from your own list and then you have to start sorting out what’s real, what isn’t, who really needs this, how long will they stick around and all that stuff. So with that said, early validation of VidGuide, I’m sure you went to your own Built to Sell list. You want to talk us through how that’s gone?

John Warrillow:
Yeah, for sure. I’ll share with you two different experiences. One validates your point, one maybe provides a different perspective. The first that provides somewhat different perspective is when we first launched VidGuide, we really wanted to set this up as its own company. We didn’t want this to be SOPs by Built to Sell, for example. We really want it to be an independent brand in part because Built To Sell has its own shtick. VidGuide has a different offering and so we wanted to be separate. We created a sequence of landing pages as you do to test the site. We were getting terrible conversion rates. Our conversion rate on a landing page was hovering between 2% and 3%, really bad. So we were driving all this traffic and we tried obviously our own list. We tried some SEO stuff, some PPC stuff, and we were just getting really bad conversion rates.
When I looked at the landing pages through the lens of what would a business owner see when they see this, it’s a URL they’d never heard of, VidGuide. It’s a product that they’ve probably never used or maybe have thought about something similar, but not exactly the same. There’s no immediate corollary unless they’re a big user of Loom, for example. There’s just no brand equity there at all. There’s no trust and we’re saying, “Hey, sign up for a seven-day free trial,” and they’re like, “No” and they bounce off the landing page. We made one very important but subtle difference to the landing page. We put the cover of the book on the landing page. We said, “The folks behind VidGuide are the same folks that are behind the book Built to Sell, which has been endorsed by Seth Godin and Tim Ferriss and blah, blah, blah.”
That one change, having the book on the landing page, boosted our conversion rates from where they were two to three, were up around 18% right now and have not really made any material differences other than the book on the cover. Now, I would agree with you by the way, Rob, that we have had some customers who are like, “I like the book. I’ll sign up for anything that has the book on it.” There is a portion of the market that like the brand and therefore be like, “Yeah, I’m not really in the market recipes offer, but I like the brand.” So it does come with that as a caveat. What I would also tell you is that what we’ve learned is that an endorsement, and probably because it’s relatively new category, an endorsement from an advisor or just a trusted source is a big deal.
We’ve tracked conversion rates to paid on people who sign up through our own list, the Built to Sell list, versus when one of our value builder advisors makes a recommendation to use VidGuide. In the latter case, our conversion rates are much higher. Again, it makes sense. It’s someone you trust, someone you know, someone you’ve worked with in the past saying, “Hey, you guys should use VidGuide.” It’s a huge endorsement and that really does spike our conversion rates from trial to paid. Actually later this month, I’m not sure when this pod will go live, but we are launching it officially to the Value Builder Advisor community and looking to mobilize that community as well because it’s a really important issue for them. This hub and spoke score is one of the big reasons that the businesses don’t reach their full potential because they’re just too dependent on the owners. We’re singing from the same hymn book there, but that was a learning for sure. Have you had April Dunford on the show?

Rob Walling:
Yes. April’s spoken at MicroConf and I definitely had her on MicroConf On Air, which is a livestream show. I’m pretty sure I’ve had her on this podcast.

John Warrillow:
Yeah. She’s great, by the way. Folks should check out her book if they haven’t already done so. But she’s great and she talks about positioning a lot. That is her shtick for sure. We went through April’s methodology for VidGuide and before we did, we were talking a lot about the importance of standard operating procedure. Our messaging was like, “Hey, you need standard operating procedures in your company.” What we came to learn through the April Dunford messaging exercises is that that’s actually not the message. Because again, most people listening to this, most business owners know they need SOPs. They’ve all read the E-Myth. It’s not a big revelation to them that they need standard operating procedures. What they do need though and what we pivoted early in the process, again thanks to April, is this idea of what your real pain point is getting your employees to follow the SOPs you’ve got or getting your employees to follow what’s in your head.
Many entrepreneurs say, “Well, I’ve got an SOP.” You get them to point to it and they’re like, “Well, no, no. Everybody knows it. This is the way it’s done.” What they realize is it’s in their head and they haven’t ever actually articulated it or recorded it or whatever. April was super helpful in getting us to pivot from here’s why you need SOPs to the problem that you need an aspirin for, which is getting your employees to follow the SOPs you already have.

Rob Walling:
See, that’s interesting too because you could use a lot of tools to create SOPs, but how can I find a tool that helps my employees use SOPs? It’s like, I don’t know. So if you are able to do that, which obviously you are with the Chrome browser and the Chrome plug-in and how it pops up, that is a much more difficult problem to solve. Because again, a lot of listeners at this show know how to build tools. A tool can help you build SOPs, but a tool on its own, I think, might struggle to get people to use them unless you have a deep understanding of your customers, the fact that you have this Chrome plug-in and the fact that you have the organizational structure that you said where everything can be tied into the different applications. Without focusing on that, on getting employees to use it, as you said, I guess it’s super easy to have them not, to create them and just have them [inaudible 00:28:40].

John Warrillow:
Yeah. It’s also one of the hidden little secrets of VidGuide is that I think a lot of us as entrepreneurs, a lot of entrepreneurs I talk to on my pod, in the essence, we’re control freaks. There’s a certain way we want it done and it’s probably why we’ve been successful to some extent is because it’s like, “No, this got to be this good. It’s got to be done this way.” What we built is the ability to just basically snoop on your employees. When you share a VidGuide with an employee and you say, “Hey, this is how I want you to do it,” and you tag it to QuickBooks or whatever software you want them to use when they’re doing the activity, then you can actually see through reporting console like, have they watched it? How far into it did they watch it? Did they rate it? Did they provide comments? So you can say like, “Hey, I sent you this VidGuide, but you didn’t watch it, and so the reason you’re making this mistake is because you haven’t done what I told you to do.”
So it gives owners a little bit of snooping ability, which I think some have told us that that’s super valuable for them. It’s not the most progressive way to manage a team, but some people like to inspect what they expect.

Rob Walling:
I say less snooping. I say more about accountability.

John Warrillow:
All right.

Rob Walling:
How about that?

John Warrillow:
You’re saying it in a nicer way.

Rob Walling:
Potato, potato. If I give someone a binder, you’re right, you just have no idea.

John Warrillow:
You’re right.

Rob Walling:
Did they look at it or not? If I send them a video and they don’t watch it and then they do it wrong, that’s a problem. If they don’t watch it and they do it right, fine. I’m not going to micromanage you. But if you don’t watch it, then you do it not the way I said to do it,-

John Warrillow:
Making the same mistake, yeah.

Rob Walling:
… yeah, that’s a real problem.

John Warrillow:
Yeah, for sure.

Rob Walling:
John Warrilow, thanks so much for joining me today. You are John Warrilow on Twitter and of course vidguide.com if you want to hear what we were talking about today, as well as your three books, Built To Sell, The Automatic Customer, and The Art of Selling Your Business. We’ll link all those up in the show notes. Thanks, John.

John Warrillow:
Thanks, Rob. It was super fun.

Rob Walling:
Thanks again to John for joining me. Thank you for coming back every week. If you keep listening, I will keep making these episodes. This is Rob Walling signing off from episode 667.