Episode 693 | Building a Mid-Six-Figure SaaS in Less Than 3 Years

Rob Walling:
It started for the rest of us. Today I have a mostly bootstrapped startup founder on the show. He is the founder of Postpone at, postpone.app. We’re going to talk about how he’s grown Postpone from zero to mid six figures, and how he came up with the idea by scratching his own itch. We talk about some early growth tactics he used, a recent price increase that was stressful, but highly successful, the platform risk that he’s experienced with Reddit, and more topics for bootstrap founders like yourself. It’s a great interview. I hope you enjoy it. 

One more thing, we’ve recently reopened the doors for our online community, MicroConf Connect. MicroConf Connect is our virtual hallway track. It’s a vibrant community of SaaS founders helping each other and discussing wins, challenges, and frankly, how to grow faster. A couple of months ago we paused new signups to improve the platform based on your requests. With MicroConf Connect 2.0, we’re rolling out three membership tiers packed with new perks, like weekly coworking, exclusive discounts, a searchable content library and more. Whether you’ve been a member of Connect or not, you really should check it out, microconf. Connect.com. And with that, let’s dive into my conversation. 

Grant McConnaughey, thanks for joining me.  

Grant McConnaughey:
Thanks so much for having me, Rob.  

Rob Walling:
Longtime listener of the show, and now you’re going to be on it. Are you going to love listening to this episode and hearing your own voice?  

Grant McConnaughey:
It is going to drive me crazy, but I will force myself to do it.  

Rob Walling:
It drives everyone crazy. I view interviews and talks. They’re painful for me to watch, but they’re game tape. How can I get better as an interviewee, an interviewer, or someone who’s doing a talk? Your app is Postpone. It’s at, postpone.app. Your H1 is the Reddit, Twitter, Instagram and TikTok scheduler for creators, automate sharing your content across all your social media accounts, and grow a following. So folks know you are a TinySeed company. You started developing Postpone in January of 2021. How did this come about? Folks who listen to this have either no ideas or a lot of ideas. Did you have a cajillion, and you picked one, or was it just so obvious to you this needed to get built?  

Grant McConnaughey:
Yeah, sorry, and just to clarify, it was January, 2020.  

Rob Walling:
Thank you.  

Grant McConnaughey:
So started working on it a couple of months before COVID hit. It really started as a New Year’s resolution project. I wanted to grow a following on Twitter, write blog posts, and get some sort of following about software engineering and things like that. I have a lot of respect for folks like Adam Wathan who’ve built this incredible following on Twitter, and then found ways to build products that those folks are interested in. And it becomes this feedback loop where you’re just building cool stuff for people. They’re buying it, you’re growing an audience, and it’s just this self-sustaining thing. So to do that, I really wanted to write blog posts and share them on Reddit as well as Twitter and other places. If I found that there wasn’t really a Reddit scheduler that existed, or at least not one that I thought was very professionally looking, there’s a couple that existed. 

I remember thinking, “I feel like I could do this. Maybe there’s other folks who also want to post on Reddit and treat Reddit the way they do their Twitter account.” Threads wasn’t around at the time, but those kinds of social media apps. So I ended up just working on it, and had this idea of, “Why don’t I build the Reddit app? I will use the Reddit app to market my own blog posts. I will write about building the Reddit app, and it will become this self-sustaining thing where I build the product, I use the product, I write about the product.” S that’s really where it ended up starting, just something I thought I needed myself and hey, maybe other people will find value in this as well.  

Rob Walling:
So scratch your own itch, which cuts both ways. Sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes you’re the only one that needs it, or no one’s willing to, but you need it, but you really wouldn’t be willing to pay for it and other people wouldn’t, or you can’t reach the customer. There’s a bunch of reasons why it potentially might not work to scratch your own itch. If someone comes to me with a scratch your own itch, I usually say, “Great, now, find 10 other people who need it. Do some validation.” It’s not a hard and fast rule, but it gives you a little more certainty that it might be actually valuable. Did you do any validation, or did you just dive into the code?  

Grant McConnaughey:
So the timing of Postpone is really a big part of the story as well. I started in January, 2020 because I was managing, and just really missed building stuff. Then March, 2020 rolled around, and as we all know, COVID hit, we’re all staying at home. So the project turned into this something to work on for fun, and I really didn’t do a lot of validation because I just enjoyed working on it. I enjoyed having something that I could write about. So there wasn’t a lot of that validation, but over time, more and more people would find it, and then that’s where I would start. I didn’t seek validation, but it eventually came after building it for months and months just for fun really.  

Rob Walling:
Your day job was at Zapier. Everyone who’s listening to this would know it. So you were an engineer at Zapier, and then nights and weekends you were building Postpone. Did you launch in March so did it only take you a couple of months to get to enough of an MVP that you felt like others could use it?  

Grant McConnaughey:
My whole goal for the year was to make a single dollar online. It’s really just an excuse to sign up for a Stripe account, have a small enough goal to just do something that someone could send me some money for, and have some project that people hopefully find value in enough to pay for. Yeah, so I tried to get it out as quickly as possible. That MVP is embarrassing. I would love to go back and see a screenshot of it. I know that it would be so bare bones, but it did the MVP. It scheduled Reddit posts, told you how they performed, the very basic feature that you would expect in something like this, and got it out in about 10 weeks.  

Rob Walling:
So that’s where. Some software developers talk about when they look at the stair-step approach, and they look at a step one business, very simple thing. They say, “What if I can just ship the whole thing, or ship an MVP in four weeks, five weeks of nights and weekends especially?” I often say, “I don’t know if I’d validate then. If I can just ship.” So that’s actually a pretty quick way to validate. Maybe I’d have one conversation, or maybe I’d do a little less. But it’s not like, if I have to go six months, I need to know that there’s going to be some type of traction for this. Getting it out in 10 weeks, 10 weeks is not nothing, but especially nights and weekends, it’s pretty impressive. What was the reception like? Did you launch it on, did do Product Hunt, or Reddit, or Hacker News?  

Grant McConnaughey:
I did Reddit, Product Hunt, Twitter, Indie Hackers. I posted it everywhere. The reception was frankly crickets. You can put all this work into it, and do this big grand reveal, but at three or 400 followers at the time, there was mostly just, “oh, that’s cool. Yeah, good for you.” So it took quite a while to actually even get that first paying customer. I remember, I think it was July, so it took a few months to even get to that point of just… Kept working on it, talking about it, and got that first person to pay me $8 a month for a subscription at the time. Boy, that was one of the most exciting $8 I’ve ever made in my life when that finally happened.  

Rob Walling:
I love that. Do you have a memory of seeing the email, or getting the ding?  

Grant McConnaughey:
Yes. I was in my car, and saw it at the grocery store. I was like, “Holy cow.’ Someone in the world thinks something I made has enough value that they’re like, “Here’s eight bucks for that. Thank you.”  

Rob Walling:
Something I should have asked at the top was to give us an idea of where the business is at today.  

Grant McConnaughey:
It’s grown a ton since then. These days we’re up to still just a pretty small group of three of us, a scrappy group. I’m the only founder, but have since found a software engineer who’s excellent. I’ve worked with him before, and a support person. We’re now in the mid six figures, ARR range, and growing pretty well.  

Rob Walling:
Did you think when that $8 came through, “You know what, in a couple of years, mid six figures, I’m calling my shot. I’m Babe Ruth in it,” at a point?  

Grant McConnaughey:
Never. It took me two years to even accept that this is, I need to go all in on this. Very risk averse, and really got it to the point where it didn’t feel as risky anymore because it was making a true salary amount of ARR. So I felt I could go all in. So I really took it the slow, steady, and risk averse way. That’s my style.  

Rob Walling:
The style of many. So folks know the context. You launched it in March, you got to 1K MRR by the following January, so it took nine or 10 months.  

Grant McConnaughey:
It did, yeah. It took several months to get the first customer in the first place, and just slowly, slowly every month getting four customers, then eight customers, and then 20. It just kept growing.  

Rob Walling:
You did something, I would almost call this a growth hack. I know people don’t like that term. But you did kind of a growth hacky does not scale thing right at the start. You want to tell us about that?  

Grant McConnaughey:
Yeah, so Reddit has a decent API that has a lot of great endpoints that you can get Reddit data. It’s really valuable, really good stuff. So in the early days, this is June, July, 2020, wrote some scripts to see who are the users who are submitting the most posts, because in theory, those are the folks who would most benefit from a scheduler like this. And tried to find who those common posters are across a bunch of different subreddits, and just sent cold DNs to see if they would be interested. As you can imagine, most cold DMs, most people didn’t say anything. Maybe 1% sent me a not so happy reply, but then every now and then a few people per day would be like, “That’s really cool. That’s awesome. I’ll check it out.” And it was a good fit for them. So the kind of thing that really doesn’t scale well, and haven’t done that in years, but in the early days it was a good way to just get anyone to care.  

Rob Walling:
You scrapped to 1K MRR in about nine or 10 months. Then you continued working full-time at Zapier until October, 2022 because you applied to TinySeed. You were doing 10K, or a little more than that when you applied?  

Grant McConnaughey:
Yeah, it was north of 10K MRR at the time I quit. Funny enough, I’d actually put my notice in at Zapier, this is October, 2022, before getting accepted in the TinySeed, and then a week later got the email from you all that I had been accepted. So I really wanted to do this either way, but then when I got that email, it was like, “All right, this is the right thing to do for sure.”  

Rob Walling:
That is cool. Folks who listen to the show know that I don’t make the podcast an advertisement for TinySeed. So I have a couple of questions for you about your experience, not to say, “Well look how great TinySeed is.” But I’m curious, there was a thought process there of like, “Should I do TinySeed?” Why do it, is my question?  

Grant McConnaughey:
I talk to a lot of… I try to have as many mentors around me as I can. I really value other people’s input, especially folks who’ve done what I’m hoping to do. So I talk to a lot of people about, is this the right decision or not? Ultimately I just thought getting in this community of other people who are doing the exact same thing, especially as a solo founder who doesn’t have another founder to bounce ideas off of. I just thought there’s going to be so much value in the mentorship, the comradery of other folks who are also going through the TinySeed process at the same time as me, and have companies that are around the same size as mine. So it just ultimately felt like the right thing to do.  

Rob Walling:
Over the last year, you’ve grown by several X, right?  

Grant McConnaughey:
Yeah, so since joining TinySeed in November of last year, it’s been about 13 months, but we’ve grown 3.4x annual recurring revenue in that time.  

Rob Walling:
That’s got to feel good. What’s been working? Someone listening to this is like, “Well, if I was at 10 or 12 KMRR, and I wanted to grow substantially,” why do you think you’re where you are today?  

Grant McConnaughey:
I think a big part of it’s hard to give an app a ton of, or a company a ton of focus as a side hustle. I really was giving Zapier my full 40 hours, and then working Saturday, Sunday mornings, evenings. But it’s just hard to really focus on big initiatives at a company when you’re doing something like that. So I think having the full time working on Postpone to really dive into like, what are the big things customers are asking for, not something I can just knock out on a Saturday morning. But a big multi-week initiative, a feature, or a new way to position the product that is going to have a really big impact. That kind of stuff has been night and day. You could see the line just trend differently as soon as I could start getting these really big, impactful, valuable features out much more quickly.  

Rob Walling:
Are you telling me that focus helped you grow faster?  

Grant McConnaughey:
Focus.  

Rob Walling:
Focus.  

Grant McConnaughey:
Just focusing on it, yeah, not splitting my attention.  

Rob Walling:
Well, why didn’t you launch four or five more apps to see what sticks? Because isn’t that, sorry, a little starter for the rest of a drinking game joke there. Yeah, you actually, I believe you published a graph on Twitter. It was with the MRR removed, but it was a graph of your MRR with no y-axis. There were two inflection points where you bootstrap or hockey stick. One, you pointed arrow, it said, “join TinySeed,” which I was like, “Oh, it warms my heart.” The second one was increased prices. So tell us about that. Was it little bit, was a lot bit of A&R and I busting your chops, TinySeed playbook raise prices, or did you already have it in the back of your head?  

Grant McConnaughey:
It was almost exclusively you all busting my chops. I think A&R and you both, we had a meetup at one point, I think you both said, “If we do nothing else but you get you all to raise your prices, by the end of this, we will have succeeded.”  

Rob Walling:
We will have succeeded, yeah. That’s pretty much the mantra.  

Grant McConnaughey:
I thought, “Well, I should probably do it right then.”  

Rob Walling:
So you did raise prices. Well, it was June of this year, so it was about six months ago, right?  

Grant McConnaughey:
Yes.  

Rob Walling:
That was when you locked, because you were Reddit only until then, I believe. And now you have Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok. So you launched the Twitter support, and you increased your prices. About how much to give people an idea?  

Grant McConnaughey:
So about 20%. So we had a $19 a month plan that went up to 25. We had a $39 a month plan that went up to 49, and so on. So about 20, 25% or so increase. And yeah, tried to coincide with the launch of that of Twitter support so it didn’t just feel like increasing prices. It’s also, “Hey, I’m getting twice the value as I was before. I can now connect more accounts, manage them all from one platform, and paying a little bit extra. I don’t mind doing that.”  

Rob Walling:
Did you grandfather existing customers, or raise the prices on existing customers as well?  

Grant McConnaughey:
So I didn’t end up raising prices for everyone, despite the advice I got from several folks was to go ahead and just rip that bandaid off. But ultimately I decided to go with an approach where I introduce brand new plans but only include Twitter support on those new plans. So folks are grandfathered in on their old plans if they want to keep that they can. But these newer plans are where we’re going to start adding new platforms like Twitter, Instagram and TikTok. So for access to those, you do have to upgrade. So it was a good way to entice folks to upgrade if they want to, but also not feel like they’re being forced to. What we found is a huge percentage of our customers use one of those other platforms, and gladly upgraded to the newer plans in order to bring on more accounts plus expanded it onto higher tiers in order to connect more accounts because we do limit some of our plan tiers by number of accounts connected. So it’s been great for both bringing in new customers, and expansion revenue as well.  

Rob Walling:
Got it. And your average revenue per account has gone up pretty substantially as well.  

Grant McConnaughey:
Yeah, that was not just increasing prices, that was also adding higher tiers, which is where we started first. Just don’t have your highest tier be $99 a month because then no one can pay you more than $99 a month. So adding on those higher tiers I think went a long way as well.  

Rob Walling:
Because you have a more for agency’s plan, basically that’s above your 99. So when they come in, and people can go to Postpone app/plans if they want to see what you’ve added in there. So you didn’t have the agency plan at this point?  

Grant McConnaughey:
Not really, no. We had plans that would support multiple accounts, but we called it Ultimate or something like that. We weren’t really speaking the language of agencies themselves because we were mostly marketing toward creators. But it was a really missed opportunity for a long time to bring in these agencies who are willing to pay more, and churn less often as well. So it’s been really big for postpones a ARR.  

Rob Walling:
I often say that raising prices is technically easy to do. It’s like, “I’m going to change the stripe call. I’m going to change the number on my pricing page.” You do some stuff. Technically it’s usually not terrible. The big block is usually emotional. It’s a mental thing of like, “I might break my business. I’m going to make people mad. Is it even the right thing?” There’s a lot of, it’s a big change. It could break the business. Did you experience that before raising prices?  

Grant McConnaughey:
I did. It was scary to do. I had to have friends and just people I know come in, and talk me up a little bit to, “Hey, it’s going to be okay. You can always roll it back if it goes horribly.” So I finally did do it, but it was something I was pretty hesitant about, and was really afraid that new signups are just going to fall off a cliff if we do this. Shockingly, I’ve shown you the ARR graph. I can also show you the subscriptions graph. And it also went up. We raised prices, and number of subscriptions went up as well, which seemed completely countered to me, but that’s what had happened over the next few months as well.  

Rob Walling:
That’s incredible. It’s a good story. In most cases, that’s what happens. I’m invested 171 companies across TinySeed, and my own personal portfolio. Almost all those have raised prices at one point. If they haven’t, and they’re listening to this, they should raise the prices right now. But no, but seriously, the usual result is that everything goes up into the right, and obviously the counterintuitive part is you can raise prices too far. If you doubled all your prices today, it might work or it might not. At a certain point if you’re just priced too high, the alternatives are cheaper, they’re easier, they’re whatever, if you’re easy to switch away from, and there are alternatives, you just can’t. There’s only so much elasticity. But even with that in mind, I can’t remember the last time a TinySeed company raised their prices, and then had to roll it back. 

With every batch of companies every six months, we fund 20, 25, 27 companies, more than half of them, probably significantly more than half, raise their prices during the batch year. So that’s a lot. I don’t know the exact number, but obviously it’s dozens and dozens. It may approach a hundred, but it’s a lot. I cannot remember. I’ve had people raise prices, and need to change, “Oh, we got the value metric wrong.” Or, “We need to tweak the plan, we need to do some stuff.” But to raise prices, and then truly roll back. I don’t know that I remember a time when that’s happened. So it’s interesting, it’s anecdata. But nonetheless, it is usually the right call specifically if you haven’t done it in a while, or never done it, I think in your case, right?  

Grant McConnaughey:
Yeah, well, I’ve done it a few times. Like I said, we launched with an $8 plan.  

Rob Walling:
That’s right.  

Grant McConnaughey:
I think our highest tier was $25 at launch.  

Rob Walling:
Got it.  

Grant McConnaughey:
But as at the time, I truly didn’t understand customers, and what they’d be willing to pay, what their price sensitivity was. But we hadn’t raised prices in over two years. I sent everyone an email, and really included this laundry list of like, this is all the amazing things we’ve added in the last two years, as well as this new Twitter support that we’re launching. I think that that really helped to show folks, the app has grown so much in that time, and there’s been so much extra value that you’ve been getting. It makes the price increases maybe just go down a little bit better. But frankly, I wish I would’ve done it six months earlier, or soon after joining TinySeed based on how well it went.  

Rob Walling:
That’s the thing, if you’re in a very slow moving space, you can evaluate prices every year or two. If you’re in a faster moving space, like marketing technology, MarTech, you’re in every six to 12 months to me, is an evaluation. Doesn’t mean you raise every time. But I used to have a notebook because I’m old school of all the major drip competitors. I would write down all the prices that were published, and about every six months, nine months, I would go and I’d redo that. 

I just had pages and pages in notebook. I would compare them and be like, “What are these other people doing?” That was a mental evaluation for me. I would also, and it wasn’t just, look, it’s not just competitors. What are your customers saying? What features have we added? Do we need to rework our value metric deal? Is it working, is it not? So there’s more to evaluation that’s looking at competitors. But that’s where fast moving space like yours, I do think that if you’re not pretty seriously considering changing your prices, raising them, or tweaking value metric about every year, think you’re going to fall behind a little bit.  

Grant McConnaughey:
Part of what makes it scary is, once you realize you’re raising your prices, and becoming maybe the most, your prices are now a little bit higher than some of your competition. There are other post schedulers out there certainly. But the Reddit space is pretty niche still. And of the ones that do exist, their prices are a little bit lower. So just coming to accept that we’re going to be the higher priced one, but that’s going to be because we offer so much extra value that you simply can’t get from competitors in a much better package, and just being okay with not being the least expensive one.  

Rob Walling:
We’re not cheap because we’re not cheap. There’s an ad, I think I mentioned it in the episode that went live last week about you don’t have to be the cheapest and own that actually. No, we’re not cheap because we’re the best. You can’t get anywhere near this from other tools. Speaking of Reddit, I remember a Reddit API debacle that happened, say in the last four or five months. There’s folks listening, if they didn’t pay attention, you want to catch them up on what happened, and I want to drive home. You are a scheduling app for Reddit, Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok, but you are solely Reddit for what, two years? And that is still the bulk of your business. 

So to hear that the Reddit API had this platform risk, that’s what we’re going to talk about here. But to hear that, that had some difficulties, I remember stressed you out a lot. You and I talked, we did some Zoom calls, we did some slacks, and it was a little bit tenuous. So why don’t you tell the full story because this is great. I think for people to hear, to understand platform risk sometimes doesn’t work out, and sometimes you can get around it.  

Grant McConnaughey:
It was definitely a scary time. It was in April, 2023, I think when Reddit-  

Rob Walling:
It’s nine months ago.  

Grant McConnaughey:
Yeah, they announced some new API pricing, but they weren’t specific about what the pricing would be. They just said that API pricing is coming, and will be required. It’ll be required to pay for the API essentially. So that just inherently, you get a little hesitant because you don’t know what that means, and is this an existential risk or not?  

Rob Walling:
I think hadn’t Twitter just done their API thing where they were like, suddenly we’re charging $12,000 a month or some insane number.  

Grant McConnaughey:
Yeah, it started at 42,000,  

Rob Walling:
Forty-two thousand a month, it’s bananas. So I remember you and I got on a call, and you’re like, “I’m concerned Reddit’s going to charge 42,000 a month because then we can’t.”  

Grant McConnaughey:
Well, exactly. That was a big part of it. If the pricing is fine, no big deal. Happy to pay it. If it’s $42,000 a month, then there’s the existential risk. You just got to close up shop. And to be clear to folks, the Twitter pricing has changed as well. They now have a hundred dollar tier, $5,000 tier, and $42,000 tier. So they have added multiple tiers since then. But Reddit did come forward with their API pricing about six weeks later in May. And fortunately for Postpone, it was something that just based on the nature of our business, the average revenue per user, and the number of API calls we make, totally doable, ended up working out just fine. 

For third party Reddit clients who have a huge amount of free users, who are using tons of API calls all day every day, it was an existential risk, unfortunately for many of them, and much lower average revenue per user for those as well because they’re very B2C mobile apps. But fortunately for Postpone, it was something that we could handle, and ended up not being a big issue. But for a while there it was like, “What do we do? This could be it right here,” because we had all the eggs in the Reddit basket at the time.  

Rob Walling:
It was touch and go. I remember you were pretty stressed because it was truly potentially existential that it would destroy the company, and there was no, you hadn’t launched. Now I’m remembering you said it was April, so you hadn’t launched Twitter, Instagram, or TikTok, right? Those came in June, I think.  

Grant McConnaughey:
Yeah. Honestly, that’s where the benefit of being a TinySeed really came up because we added Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok because of a conversation I had with you where you said, “I think it’s just time to expand.” It was a great way for Postpone to diversify a bit. I think it was definitely the right call.  

Rob Walling:
And also a way to get a little more MRR, little more average revenue per [inaudible 00:25:26]  

Grant McConnaughey:
More MRR, make it a little more sticky. Lots of benefits that came with diversifying.  

Rob Walling:
Well, I’m glad the platform risk didn’t wipe you off the face of the earth this time.  

Grant McConnaughey:
Me too. But it is. It’s scary. There are folks who built Twitter apps who, their app didn’t exist after the $42,000 a month pricing came out, and they just had to close up shop. So it’s something that I think about quite a bit. Platform risk is real. So I have to keep that in mind and really ask whether it’s something you can work around, or if it’s truly existential.  

Rob Walling:
I think I want to wrap up with this question of, you’re a successful bootstrap, mostly bootstrap entrepreneur. You’re in an enviable position that I think a lot of listeners of this podcast would love to be in. With that in mind, what do you wish that you were doing better right now as the founder, operator, and CEO of Postpone?  

Grant McConnaughey:
Great question. I started working on Postpone as a software engineer at Zapier. Really wonderful company that I enjoyed working with them, but I just wanted to build these other skill sets as well. But I’ve found that in building Postpone, building up this product, and a small company, I still spend a lot of my time building, working on product stuff. I still feel like an engineer at heart. You simply have to focus on marketing as well. If I could go back, I would tell myself to spend three times as much as I’m spending on marketing over the last couple of years, whether that’s working on SEO building landing pages, especially signing up for affiliate programs that your users can join, and things like that. Don’t get into a rut of just building, and building, and thinking, “If I build this feature, then they will come,” because they might not. So definitely sticking with marketing would be a big thing for me to focus on. Huge recommendation to the book. I think it is called, Traction?  

Rob Walling:
By Gabriel Weinberg.  

Grant McConnaughey:
Yeah. Finding customer acquisition channels, trying out new ways of that. A Huge shout-out to that book, which really kind of opened my eyes to how to start getting a little bit of leverage on these different marketing avenues, and really doubling down on the ones that work.  

Rob Walling:
Grant McConnaughey, it’s been great having you on the show. You are, G McConnaughey on Twitter. We will link that up in the show notes because your last name is not the easiest to spell.  

Grant McConnaughey:
It is not, no.  

Rob Walling:
We will also try to find your tweet with the graph of your MRR because I thought that was really cool. We’ll link that in the show notes as well. Thanks again for coming on the show, man.  

Grant McConnaughey:
Sounds good. Thank you so much, Rob. I appreciate it.  

Rob Walling:
Thanks again to Grant for coming on the show. It’s great to be back in the saddle doing some interviews. I’m done with a ton of travel this fall. So I’m trying to schedule a few guests to come on the show. I look forward to seeing you back again next week. This is Rob Walling, signing off from episode 693.