Episode 702 | Revenue vs. Profit Multiples, When to Lower Prices, and More Listener Questions

Rob Walling:
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I love the smell of startups in the morning. You’re listening to Startups For the Rest of Us. I’m your host, Rob Walling. Thank you if you responded to my tweet about episode 700. That was very meaningful. A lot of people weighed in on that thread and I just really appreciated all the well wishes and all the folks who said that this podcast has impacted you on your journey and it’s made a difference in your entrepreneurial career because that’s why I’m here, that’s why I do this every week. 

Today, for the first time in quite a while, I’m doing a solo listener question episode. I have some voicemails piling up. I’m going to be covering topics ranging from which episodes of this podcast are good for beginners, whether someone should focus on revenue or profit, how to compete in a competitive space and being concerned about that, as well as when do conditions warrant lowering your prices. 

But before we get into the episode, I want to invite you to MicroConf Remote: Early Stage SaaS Sales Strategies. It’s an online event. We’re hosting March 12th and 13th of 2024. It runs from 11:00 AM to 1:00 PM Eastern Time on those two days. And there will be sessions all focused on early stage SaaS sales led by Rachel Leow, Craig Hewitt, Daniel Hebert, Sam Howard. I’ll be emceeing. And we’re going to cover strategies to boost your close rate, build a sustainable sales process, and figure out how to overcome the challenges of selling as a technical founder. We’ll also have Daily Founder Mixer Sessions where you’ll get to meet other attendees to network and chat about what you’re working on. Tickets are inexpensive and they are available at microconfremote.com. 

Let’s dive into the first question of the day. As always, voicemails, audio or video, go to the top of the stack. You can always send in a question by going to startupsfortherestofus.com. Click Ask a question in the top nav.  

Samuel:
Hi Rob, Samuel from Sweden here. I’ve been following you the past years and you’ve inspired me to build my own products and launch some stuff. But now also I would like to introduce this thinking to some of my friends who are really skilled but not into this entrepreneurial bootstrapping thinking. So I wonder what episodes would you recommend me to introduce them with? You’ve done a lot of episodes, but maybe you have a few that could summarize it and get them going. Thanks.  

Rob Walling:
It’s a good question and my answer is, it depends, of course. Honestly, is a podcast the best way to introduce someone to a concept like this? I think it might be a book or a blog post for that matter. So if you want to send them a blog post, I would Google The Stair Step Method of Entrepreneurship and send them that. If you think a book would be better for them, and obviously that can be audio or PDF or Kindle or a paperback, it’s going to be up to you. Start Small, Stay Small is old and it’s a bit dated, but the philosophy is really laid out well in that book. And I’d say 75% of what’s in there still holds true today. It’s the mental side of it. It’s transitioning from developer to entrepreneur. And that book is cheap. It’s 10 bucks on Kindle. And there’s an audio version on Audible. So whatever they like to learn in, that might be the starting point. 

The Saas Playbook, in my opinion, is a much better book. It’s, I’m a better writer. I have more knowledge. It covers more topics. It covers topics I think are overall maybe more relevant to today’s space. And again, that’s similar, it’s 10 to $25 depending on which format folks want to dig into. 

Now if instead they watch a lot of YouTube, then you could go to microconf.com/YouTube and we have a playlist called Building Your First SaaS: The Ultimate Crash Course. It’s a lot of videos, but it kind of gets you in the mindset of what we do here. 

I personally think books are just, they’re a more compact way to do it and they’re probably a more approachable way than recommending episodes of a podcast. 

With that said, if I really wanted to dig in and recommend episodes of the podcast, I would go to the greatest hits tab in the top nav of Startups For the Rest of Us. There’s some interesting solo adventures in that list that I think do a decent job of communicating what we do and how we think. I know it looks like there is episode 222, this stair-step approach to launching products that’s back from 2015, so it’s almost 10 years old. But that’s certainly going to be kind of the podcast version of the blog post I recommended earlier. 

So thanks for that question. I hope my answer was helpful. Now for my next question about focusing on revenue versus profit.  

Cat:
Hi Rob. My name is Cat Wildman. I run a startup called Powered by Diversity. We’ve been running since September 2020 and I went full-time in 2022. We closed 2023 just shy of 200K pounds profit. Not profit, revenue. My question is about profit though. So in 2024 we’re targeting 500K and we’re tracking to meet that target already. 

Now my question is about valuations and profit. So I have been going on top line. So you know you’re ready for series A when you’re at 1 million pounds recurring revenue. We’re tracking to get that not this year but the year after. And we’ll get there. However, I had an acquisition offer in 2023 and they were valuing us on profit. 

My question to you is, we are growing, though we are never going to have a massive batch of cash in the bank because we’re spending it all to grow.We spend everything that comes in on achieving that top line revenue target. So what is the startup to do? Are we going to end up… Is this world of SaaS up moving away from top line valuations and into profit? Do we hit our top line valuation and then sit and become really profitable and then sell? What is going on with this profit versus top line? Because I really don’t know what to do because when you look at our P&L, we’re not very profitable at all. I think our profit, our cash at the end of 2023 was like 8.5K because we spent it all in order to get to the 200K top line revenue. And it’s going to be the same in 2024. Please help me.  

Rob Walling:
It’s a good question, Cat. It’s something that we have touched on in the past on the show, but it’s not something that I think I’ve covered probably in a couple years now. 

And so here are the rules of thumb. These are just rules of thumb. There’s always exceptions to this. I am going to give an exception almost right at the start. But in general, once you get past, it used to be a million ARR, this is SaaS only. I’m not talking about building info products or courses or building a gym or a coffee shop. I’m talking about building B2B SaaS. It used to be north of a million ARR, now it’s, I’m going to say it’s closer to 1.5 million. It’s somewhere in that range. That’s when buyers will start to evaluate you based on revenue and growth are really the one and two. Actually, growth is number one and revenue is number two and churn I think is number three in terms of what they’re valuing you based on. 

Not everyone will do that though. And in fact, there are these micro private equity firms or value buyers that will buy you based on net profit no matter what because they know that you haven’t been going for profit and they want to push the price down as much as they can and get a deal on it. When you’re sub a million ARR, I don’t know that I’ve heard of very many. There’s exceptions, but as a rule, you’re going to be selling for a multiple of net profit. 

I have an exception already. We had a company we were looking to back with TinySeed, we made him an offer. He verbally accepted and then he got an acquisition offer. I’m going to make up numbers here, but say he was doing 80,000 ARR, so it’s early stage, a pretty good fit for TinySeed still. He sold for 10X that, and it was just a top line thing. And why did he sell for 10X that? Well, the multiple’s almost irrelevant at that point because that’s what he needed to give up on the business. And he got all cash. It was a good offer. 

So it’s not an always thing, but it’s kind of the general rule of thumb the way it works is net profit up to about a million and a half ARR. And above that, if you’re dealing with the right buyers, so it’d be strategics or the bigger private equity who are not value buyers, they’re going to look at you at a revenue multiple based on growth. And if you are looking at value buyers or you’re below a million or a million and a half ARR, then yeah, you’re going to be looking at net profit. And that’s why if I was growing a company looking to exit in the next few years, I would not be worried about profit. I would be pumping every dollar I had back into the engine to get it to grow faster and grow bigger. 

And even if I wasn’t looking to exit, even if I was looking to pull profits out in the long term, if you can get that in a healthy, organic, sustainable growth and you can get your company to 2, 3, 4, 5 million, you do have so much more leeway there to then pump the brakes to back off on the growth and just get a lot more cash out of the business. 

So thanks for that question, Cat. I hope my insights were helpful.  

Speaker 4:
Absolutely love your podcast. Such an eye opener to so many questions that I’ve had and continue to have as I progress down this journey. Can’t wait to attend my first MicroConf conference when you are next in Europe. I know audio recorded questions get bumped up to the top of the queue, so hopefully you’ll be able to answer this one soon. 

Similar to yourself back in the day, I’m currently a consultant looking to scratch my own itch and create a SaaS platform for myself and my peers. But let me be honest, I’m crapping my pants. I really work in a fast-paced world of business process automation and AI and the niche solution on delivering is even faster. I’ve built some sort of following, a few thousand people on LinkedIn through blogging and newsletters and talking to my peers in depth about their challenges and I’m developing an MVP of what I know what I think is going to solve their problem from the conversations that we’ve had. 

The solution logic is a little tricky for me and that’s taken quite a long time, quite a few weeks to get this MVP up and running. I’m constantly looking over my shoulder as the market seems to be progressing at the solution that I have. But I feel that this solution really hits the nail on the head to solve my problems, my client problems and my peers. But do I continue developing myself or do I find some developer resource who can help me arrive faster at a workable MVP to present to my first potential client who’s a huge corporation, 33,000 employees? So there’s someone I have contact in there that potentially could buy this solution if it works and I can demonstrate it. And also, what are your top three elements to be differentiating myself in this market full of startups and companies with lots of backing and funding?  

Rob Walling:
All right, so there’s a lot there. I appreciate you sending that question in. So to answer the first part, which is, “Do I bring a developer on or do I continue building it on my own?” Without more details, I just can’t tell you what to do. The way I would think about this decision though is, “Am I making enough progress on my own and do I think that the code I’m writing or whatever I’m doing to build an MVP, because an MVP does not have to involve code at all, but is the solution I’m building going to satisfy these needs in a way that I could quickly transition to a scalable solution if I needed to? Or am I writing (beep) code and it’s going to crash or not scale because I’m kind of teaching myself, I’m a hobby developer as I go?” 

And it just depends. Without knowing your market and your space and more information about your financial situation, if you don’t have the money, don’t bring a developer on. Just let it take longer. Teach yourself. I used to go to library and check out books on Perl and PHP and HTML because I didn’t have the money to hire someone. But if you have the money, then maybe. And at that point, then you need to look for a reputable developer because the worst thing you can do, and the thing I see non-technical founders make over and over, is hiring developers to build stuff and they don’t know how to hire developers because they’re not technical and the code is crap and then it’s not scalable anyways and they’ve spent a bunch of money. 

So my answer is, I don’t know. It depends on too many factors. I think this is where you have to make a hard decision with incomplete information. And if you’re making progress on your own and you’re building it, if you feel like you’re going to build something that’s going to solve their needs, then I don’t know why you wouldn’t keep doing that. So many people build nights and weekends. However, if I had a bucket of cash and you know some developers or you can find a referral to a reputable developer or an agency, is it something you should consider? Possibly. It’s really hard to know and it depends on a lot of factors. 

Your second question was about differentiating yourself in a competitive space. And frankly, as a startup, you don’t want to punch pound for pound at big competitors. What are their biggest weaknesses? Their biggest weaknesses are they don’t listen to customers if they don’t move fast enough. Usually, they don’t have the best developers, designers because they don’t want to work there. So their software is usually pretty crappy, there’s a lot of politics. And usually, their customers don’t like their software, don’t like how much they charge, don’t like how they sell, don’t like that they get locked into these contracts. There’s all this stuff that big companies do that you need to figure out how to use against them, use their biggest strengths against them. 

So you need to move fast. You need to build amazingly easy to use software. You need to sell it in exactly the way that your early customers want to buy it. Not forever. You’ll adjust that eventually. You’ll raise prices eventually. Right now, I would come in, I’m assuming if they’re big players in the space, that big brand names that they’ve raised their prices over and over and over because that’s the playbook and it leaves a ton of room below them, to be cheaper. And cheap is not your number one value prop I would say, but it is part of that package. You have to do all this stuff. And you find these hated competitors and you basically look to recruit refugees from them who just want out. So that is the number 1, 2, 3, and 4 things I would be doing to use my big competitor’s strengths against them. 

My next question is from Dylan about when it’s warranted to lower prices.  

Dylan:
Hey there, Rob, this is Dylan Pierce from Cleveland, Ohio. Thanks for taking the time to answer my last question. It’s been a few months and your answer was really helpful. 

So my new question for you is, have you ever had a scenario where you realized that you had to lower your pricing? I know the mantra is to always find ways to increase your price, and that makes sense. Differentiation your bootstraps, you can’t necessarily compete in the race to the bottom. But what are some signals where you found that your market, you just absolutely need to lower prices to be competitive? 

So some background for me, I’ve built a product that integrates with eCommerce platforms. This product uses computer vision and it’s typically reserved for banks and FinTech or startups that have a developer team that they can integrate over APIs and have that complexity to onboard. Whereas my solution is a simple plug-and-play app and it adds this functionality with the eCommerce use case in mind. 

I’ve been noticing recently that there’s been churn due to competitors that have much lower pricing but take a different approach than I do, less quality. But at the same time, I also rank number one for the key terms I care about. So I am considering lowering pricing just because of the pushback I’m getting from new leads as well as retaining existing customers due to a lower priced, in my opinion, a lower quality approach. But in the end, it seems like the sensitivity to quality isn’t so high. So at what point would you consider lowering prices? What are your thoughts on that? Thanks.  

Rob Walling:
I love this question because it’s not something that we tend to talk about very much on the show, because frankly it is so rare in my decades of doing this and then advising and investing. I can think of definitely two companies. I mean, I’m talking thousands and thousands that I’ve seen and that I’ve advised to raise prices and all that. I think two for sure that I can think of by name, and there’s got to be at least one or two more. So it can happen. There is absolutely a time when the signals are pointing to you lowering prices. And usually, the signals are pretty much what you’re saying. If you’re getting a lot of churn because your customers are going to a competitor and they’re siding price as the number one issue, or if you’re losing deals, if you’re doing more high-touch sales, sounds like you’re not doing that, you’ll get a sense that like, “Ooh, we’re too expensive.” 

Now, you’re always going to have complaints about price. And in fact, if you’re not getting any complaints about price, then your price is too low. But in this case, yes, can there be signals? There can be. And it sounds like you might be in that position right now. Churn and losing deals are the number one and two, right? It’s people putting their money where their mouth is. And if their switching costs are low out of your product to another one, that makes it even more painful. If switching costs are high, it’s a little less motivation for you to need to lower prices. 

But obviously, you can either raise prices too much. You can just keep increasing, increasing to where you kind of lose product market fit or where you’re the most expensive product in your space in your category and you don’t provide any additional value, then yeah, you’re overpriced. Especially the more of a commodity you are, it really is a race on price. The more of a brand you are that people just know you and you’re the best and no one gets fired for buying IBM, these days it’s Salesforce or HubSpot, Intercom. These are these expensive tools and it’s like, “Well, how can they charge so much?” Because they can. Because they’re a brand and they’re trusted and they integrate with everybody and no one gets fired for using them. 

So in your case, would I lower prices? I would certainly consider it if I was losing deals and if I was churning to these other competitors. Even if it’s an inferior product, I would certainly try to figure out a way to better communicate that. But if you’re doing low touch sales and you are viewed as a relative commodity to these other apps, it’s something I’d consider. 

Here’s the other thing, is can you think about lowering prices on the low end? So your entry level plans, the published plans so to speak, such that you are an obvious… You’re at parity with these other solutions or maybe you’re 10% more or whatever. But then as folks graduate up to tiers, as they get more value from your product, as they get more usage out of your product, that the price does increase with the value that you provide. That’s how I’d be thinking about it. Thanks for your question. I hope that was helpful. 

My next question is from anonymous about pursuing career growth versus staying and building on the side.  

Speaker 6:
Hi Rob. I’m relatively new to the startups for the rest of this universe, but I’ve been loving the podcast and the SaaS Playbook. They’ve helped make what has long been an abstract goal of self-employment seem realistic, actionable, and attainable. 

Now to my question. I’ve been at my current company for almost a decade, which as I’m sure you know is an eternity in software time. I’ve learned a ton and I’ve had lots of opportunities for growth, which is why I’ve stayed. Lately though, I’ve been feeling like I’ve reached the extent of my growth potential here and the grass is starting to look greener elsewhere. I think a move to a different company would let me learn a lot more about how other businesses function and grow and might help spur more of my own startup ideas by exposing me to other teams and industries. I’m also concerned that staying at the same company for much longer will limit my future employability. Startups don’t seem to like seeing 10 plus years of tenure on a resume. 

On the other hand, I have stability, flexibility, and institutional knowledge here, which means more free time to develop my own ideas and hopefully start on the stair-step approach or start bootstrapping something meaningful. If I make a move, that means that I’ll have to put in more intense time at work learning about a new product, code base, and team, and I’d be starting over on trust and stability. I know it’s hard to give specific advice based on a high-level overview, but I’m wondering if you have any general thoughts on this type of situation. Pursue career moves that might pay off long-term or use the current stability and flexibility to focus on building on the side right now? Thanks for your time. I really appreciate your work.  

Rob Walling:
Yeah, I appreciate the question. And you’re correct, I can’t give you direct advice about this because it’s your life and it’s your career. The way I think about it though is timing and timeline. If you move to another job now, I think in the long run it will benefit you. It’s likely to benefit you for the reasons you said of being exposed to new ways of doing things and new code bases and all that. 

The question is, do you have the months? I don’t think it’s years, but you’re definitely going to lose months of building back that trust and learning code bases and this and that in your life right now. I don’t know how old you are. I don’t know if you’re planning to have a child in 12 months. And so you have some kind of timeframe. Or if it’s like [inaudible 00:21:36], it’s looser, like, “I have 3, 4, 5 years to make this work,” then I think playing the long game, I probably would look for another job. You’re also likely to get a raise when you do that. You get exposed to new things. 

So all things being equal, I tend to want to do the thing that’s going to expose me to new experiences. That maybe makes me a little uncomfortable because I don’t love change myself and changing a job always came with uncertainty. Sometimes that uncertainty was a good thing and sometimes it wasn’t. Sometimes the job change was good and sometimes it wasn’t. I would lean towards being exposed to new people, expanding your network because now you have your old network, all the people you work with at your old company, you have the people you work with at your new company. It’s beneficial. But again, to me, it comes down to what is your time pressure in terms of your life timeline that you need to fit within in order to have enough revenue and what timeframe to quit the day job. So I hope you don’t take that as direct advice, but just a thought experiment of how I would think about it. 

My next question and the final question for the day is about cap tables.  

Steve:
Hey Rob, this is Steve Davis, a long time listener and a periodic correspondent. I was wondering if sometime you could do a deep dive into cap tables. It seems to be something that can cause people trouble later in their business. And I know you’ve had some great ideas like everyone earning in and such. So I hope you cover this sometime. And again, thank you for years of both insight and entertainment. Have a great holiday season. Bye-Bye.  

Rob Walling:
Thanks for that question, Steve. It’s good to hear from you after emailing with you a bit over the years. 

So for this one, I don’t know that I need to do a deep dive. It honestly doesn’t feel that complicated to me. I think I have three rules that I’m going to give you. First, I’m going to define what a cap table is for those who don’t know. It’s short for capitalization table. All it means is who owns what shares in your company, who owns what percentage of your company. And at the start, it’s one line. You can put it in a Google sheet. Most startups that I’ve seen are managing it in an Excel sheet or a Google Doc and it’s like, “This founder owns this much or we just know that that it is in the operating agreement” or whatever. 

When it gets complicated is if you take outside investors, if you create a stock option plan, if you take safes, which are a promise of future equity at a certain cap, then it starts to become muddy of how much. It’s not muddy per se, but it can be confusing if you don’t have it all mapped out of how much you and everyone else on the cap table owns and will own when that equity converts. 

So my simple, easy to remember, Rob’s patented rules to managing your cap table, number one, is everyone vests, even founders. So if you start a company with one other co-founder, both of you should vest into your equity. That just means that you have to work there for years in order to receive 100% of your equity grant. Usually, it’s a four-year vesting period. Standard is four with a one-year cliff, meaning you get zero equity until 12 months. Sometimes with founders, you wave the cliff and people get it from month one. You can talk to a lawyer and see what they say, but a big mistake that founders make with their cap table is not having people vest. You start a company with one other person, they walk away after six months. If they own 50% of your company, company’s DOA at that point. You will never raise funding for that company. You’ll be working to put money in the pocket of that founder who left. It’s catastrophic for the company and it’s not something you want to do. So everyone vest. 

Number two is, it’s a loose world of thumb, but don’t sell more than 10 or 20% of your company in a single round. So for example, we have seen companies apply to TinySeed that we wanted to fund. And if the founders, by the time they reach us between one, two or three of them, however many there are, if they own less than 80% of their company, we start to ask questions. And if they own less than 70%, it’s a bad sign. So we’ve seen some folks come in where it’s a single founder where sold 70% of his company to an early investor for not enough money to be honest. That’s tough. It’s really tough, because again, it makes the business… I’m not saying it’s DOA, but it’s like do you want to put in five or 10 years of work into this thing to basically line the pockets as someone who wrote you a check several years ago for not that much money? 

So loose rule of thumb, even tight rule of thumb is I would be super suspect if I was selling more than… If you’re doing a bootstrap or funding round, it’s like 10 or 15%. Sometimes you can sell 20%. I’ve seen it venture, it’s more 20 or 25. But in our space, in the MicroConf indie space, it’s in that 10 to 15% ranges where I would be sticking if I was going to raise funding. 

And the third point or rule is understand your safes and your convertible notes. So this is where you understand what it is and how it works. Safe is a promise of future equity. Convertible note will convert in the future and give whoever gave you that loan. Convertible note is technically on the books a loan that you’re paying interest on, but then it converts to equity at a certain point. Usually it’s your next funding round or it’s after X amount of years. 

We’ve seen a founder, we’ve seen multiple founders who didn’t understand their safes and were telling us, “No, I see. I own 90% of the company.” And we’re like, “No. When that safe converts, they own 80%, 90%.” In one case, I think it was actually 100%. It was a bizarre case. But really understand, like don’t DIY your own legal. This is where you don’t do your own legal yourself. 

Here are things I don’t skimp on. Tattoos, LASIK surgery, and legal, and shoes actually. Those are the four. I’m sure there are more than that. But these are things that are important to get right the first time, because if you screw them up, it’s not good down the line. So if you’re going to raise any type of funding, but certainly if it’s going to be safes and convertible notes, understand what that’s going to do to your cap table. 

And when you’re in these early stages before you’ve… Let’s say you’re going to raise venture down the line, you really need to own the vast majority of your company before you get to that pre-seed and seed round because if you don’t, you’re going to get diluted down to nothing by the time you get to the point where you have a liquidity event. So thanks for that question, Steve. I hope it was helpful for you and for other listeners. 

One of the callers today mentioned the SaaS Playbook and I realized the other day it’s crossed 20,000 copies sold. So it is quickly catching up to my best-selling book of all time, Start Small, Stay Small. What’s interesting is I posted to Twitter probably six or eight weeks ago that the SaaS Playbook had crossed 10,000 copies sold. Turns out, I did my math wrong. I actually missed an entire swath of books that had sold and it was probably closer to 14,000 or 15,000 when I posted that. And since then it’s crossed 20,000, which is incredible. 

Start Small, Stay Small, I had always had in my head that it had sold like 15,000, 16,000, 17,000 in that realm. I logged in to just Amazon KDP and it was well over 20,000 just there. It doesn’t include Audible, it doesn’t include all my direct sales. So I’ve now realized that I should probably keep better track of this just so I know. I like to know the numbers. Start Small, Stay Small as a self-published book has now sold more than 30,000 copies. Pretty incredible. I want to get an exact number on that. I need to go back through my records. But as a self-published book, I’m going to be honest, it feels pretty incredible. 

Now, that book has been out for 14 years now. So for the SaaS Playbook in eight months, 20,000, so it’s catching up quickly and still selling, I don’t know, 800 copies a month, 1,000 copies a month right now. It feels really good. And it feels like I talked about playing the long game in episode 700. This is all that coming to fruition, right? To be able to write a book, given the years of experience that I have and both the hard knocks that I’ve learned, but also now learning through the hard knocks of others to be able to put it in a book and then be able to get the distribution and get the word of mouth. I mean, not a day goes by that I don’t see some type of mention of MicroConf or the podcast or SaaS Playbook somewhere out there on social media or Reddit, Hacker News. 

So I really appreciate you being part of this community, this community of misfits as we call it these days with MicroConf, and this community, this audience of this podcast, and just taking it all in and helping promote. I guess it’s this mission that bootstrapping is actually, in a lot of cases, in most cases, is the right call. We don’t have to be prisoners to this narrative that the venture industrial complex tells us that we’re not important if we don’t raise funding, we’re not important if we don’t sell for a billion dollars. That we are actually changing a lot of lives for the better. Whether you’re bootstrapping or you’re helping others bootstrap, this community is incredibly supportive and I find it incredibly motivating to be part of it. So thanks for showing up this week and every week. This is Rob Walling signing off from episode 702.