Episode 727 | Gymdesk Sells for More than $32.5 million, Hiring Gets Easier, and More Hot Take Tuesday Topics

Rob Walling:
I’m back with another episode of, Startups For the Rest of Us. Today’s episode is Hot Take Tuesday. Welcome back, Einar and Tracy, and we talk about topics relating to bootstrapping and growing your company, including how mostly bootstrap company, Gymdesk, sold for more than $32.5 million. In fact, after we recorded this episode, I recorded an interview with the founder of Gymdesk that will air on this very feed in the next couple of weeks, so stay tuned for that. Today we also talk about whether hiring is getting easier for bootstrappers, what changes in mindset might be present between founders at different MRR levels, how to identify what really moves the needle, and more Hot Take Tuesday topics. 

Before we dive into the episode, if you’re not on the email list for this show, you should head to startupsfortherestofus.com, enter your email. What you’ll receive from there is a weekly email with the show notes and a recap of every episode with timestamps. You can of course opt out of that and still receive the less frequent emails we send. But you’ll also receive two never-before-released episodes, Eight Things You Should Know Before Launching Your SaaS, and, 10 Things You Should Know as You Grow Your SaaS, as well as a PDF of the 5 PM Framework. 

In addition, I’m just wrapping up a book about selling your company. My wife, Dr. Sherry Walling and I, are in the final days of locking in that manuscript. If you get on the email list here, you will hear about that book when it goes live. So, with that, let’s dive in to Hot Take Tuesday. Welcome back to this Hot Take Tuesday Roundtable. My first guest is someone you know very well. Tracy Makes on Twitter, our very own Tracy Osborn. Hey, Tracy. Welcome.  

Tracy Osborn:
Excited to be back.  

Rob Walling:
It’s been a while since Hot Take Tuesday. Bit of travel, bit of not a lot of news. I mean even today, I like the docket today, but two or three of them are just questions that I think that-  

Tracy Osborn:
It’s the summer.  

Rob Walling:
Yeah.  

Tracy Osborn:
Yeah, things are chill.  

Rob Walling:
My other panelist is TinySeed’s very own, Einar Vollset. Welcome to the show.  

Einar Vollset:
Thanks for having me.  

Rob Walling:
Let’s dive right into our first story, and we will link this up in the show notes. It’s a PR Newswire article. It says, “Gymdesk announces a $32.5 million dollar strategic growth investment from Five Elms Capital.” Gymdesk of course being a TinySeed company.  

Tracy Osborn:
Yeah.  

Rob Walling:
So, we are stoked about this. I’m very happy for Eran, the founder. I think the question I want to toss to you first, Einar, is, does this prove or at least help to prove our thesis of TinySeed? Which is B2B SaaS companies are worth a lot of money, and even the little ones, even the TinySeeds and the MicroConfs, they don’t have to be unicorns to have enormous valuations. Obviously raising at 32.5 million means this company is extremely valuable now. So, talk us through your thinking.  

Einar Vollset:
Yeah. I mean, they didn’t raise at 32.5 million, they raised 32.5 million. The valuation was even higher than that. I think it’s a great story. As we know, even the majority of our successful companies don’t even necessarily raise any more money after us, but I think what this shows is that some of the TinySeed companies will grow into companies that will take this kind of money from growth private equity, where it’s like, there’s a lot… I actually think a lot of people don’t realize that these software private equity growth capital funds even exist. They think, okay. There’s VC and that’s it. But realistically, once you get past about a million in ARR, there are pretty deep pools of capital that are interested in investing in these kind of companies and taking them further and taking them to the next level. 

So, in that regard, it’s very exciting for us. It’s obviously very exciting for Eran and the team, and I think TinySeed, we sold some of our equity as part of the transaction, but we also rolled a substantial amount forward, and we expect them to just keep growing. The big player, so Gymdesk is obviously in the gym management fitness space. The big player in the space is publicly traded, Mindbody. Everyone in the space hates Mindbody, and I think there’s a path to where Gymdesk basically becomes the better version of Mindbody and potentially is public down the line. So, for us it’s very exciting.  

Rob Walling:
It’s great as a founder to enter a space with a big incumbent that everyone hates, and to be in a vertical. This is something I called back in January, my predictions for this year of vertical SaaS and orthogonal SaaS are the places where we see a lot of opportunity for founders, not only to get in and carve out a space for themselves, but I would argue, I would posit that exiting and evaluations can likely be higher than if you’re building a big horizontal thing.  

Einar Vollset:
I think that’s true. I mean, I think in general too, I see this in the Discretion Capital side. We see the appetite for M&A and outcomes is substantially higher for sticky vertical SaaS, where there’s high recurrence, low churn. Obviously they want growth, but they don’t need to have 500, 600% year-over-year growth to have a business that is backable or acquirable at that size. It’s also, it’s one of those things like, look. Gymdesk, they raised his money at a huge valuation, but the only other money they raised was from us. That was it.  

Rob Walling:
Right. I wonder if this means they’re no longer mostly bootstrapped because that’s a lot of money. It’s a lot of money. Just so people have an idea before I kick it to Tracy, Einar mentioned Discretion Capital, he is the founder of Discretion Capital, which is an M&A advisory for B2B SaaS companies doing two to 25 million ARR, and Discretion represented Eran and Gymdesk in this transaction.  

Einar Vollset:
Yes, indeed.  

Rob Walling:
Tracy, what’s your take on this whole deal?  

Tracy Osborn:
To repeat what Einar said, it was the whole private equity path. When I was a startup founder and when I first started TinySeed, I didn’t even realize that was an option. I’ve been seeing articles, I’ve been hearing Einar talk about this for the last few years, and then I’ve been seeing articles in the last few months about more people talking about the current economic climate when it comes to venture capital, and how private equity is becoming more of an option, or more of something where people want to go for. People are more aware of it and it’s more of a desirable option for a lot of companies that are wanting to exit. 

So, it’s really cool to see an example on this directly from TinySeed. I think this is a great example to other founders out there who might be struggling with traditional VC to look at this direction, because I think there’s some folks who are just like, “Uh, private equity.” I think there’s cases like this where you can see where private equity can position Gymdesk and give them resources they need to grow up against something like Mindbody.  

Einar Vollset:
Yeah. I think it’s true. I think fundamentally a lot of people have a view of private equity is from a Bruce Springsteen song. It’s like they came to town, they bought the factory, shut it down, and now my father’s an alcoholic, type thing. But what this proves, and look. Gymdesk isn’t the first company, TinySeed company that did this. We’ve had at least one or two more. We think, given the number of companies that we’re backing and how they’re growing, we’re expecting more and more companies to decide that they’ll get to a million or two or five or whatever, and decide that whatever got us here won’t get us there. Having more capital and in some cases advice and experience to go from say five to 50 million in ARR, is a viable path. 

I also think that there are more companies that started out on the IPO VC path, and have built substantial businesses that make sense. They’re doing two or five or 10 million or more, and they realized they’re not growing it. I think it was Gary Tan had put out some stat about 2023 as like, the medium growth rate you had to have to be a successful series A VC, raise a series A VC round in 2023, was 600% year-over-year growth, but-  

Rob Walling:
A lot of companies aren’t going to hit that.  

Einar Vollset:
That’s not the only path. Yeah, that’s not the only path. Look, there are companies out there, there are investors, certainly you probably have to be at a reasonable scale. The fundamental thing about private equity is they care more about downside protection than VC does. But the flip side is, if you can provide that downside protection by being at a certain scale, then the kind of outcome that they’re looking for, three to five X in three to five years, might be better and more aligned with what it is that you want to do with your life. It’s like the way that I put it in one of the projects that I’ve got going called, Next Catalyst, is do you want to be rich or do you want to be king? There are some people who basically the thing they care the most about is to be famous. They want to be known as the Elon Musk of the world. They want to be known as an amazing startup founder that succeeded and rang the bell at NASDAQ. Then there’s the rest of us who is like, “You know what? I’d rather just be rich.”  

Rob Walling:
Onto our next topic with layoffs and back to the office, in effect. Is it getting easier for bootstrappers to hire? Tracy, what is the word on the street? We have 171 investments across TinySeed, B2B SaaS, almost 300 founders now. What’s the word that you’re hearing in terms of hiring difficulty or ease compared to the last couple of years?  

Tracy Osborn:
That’s an interesting question. Actually, I’m not sure if I have specific stats on that. I have a lot of gut feelings. I mean, hiring is always hard, right?  

Rob Walling:
Gut feelings are fine.  

Tracy Osborn:
Yeah. Hiring is always going to be hard. With the folks who are used to working from home and they want to have those benefits of working at home, there’s pros and cons in all of this. Where these giant companies want people to go back to the office, and so they could be looking for… Might be easier to find these folks who are wanting to work from home, and might be easier to find those folks that work at those big companies. However, the other thing that I think I’ve heard about is also the mindset of these potential employees and whether they fit within a bootstrap company. 

Because a bootstrap company is not going to pay as well as one of these giant companies. There’s going to be a lot of benefits, like working from home and the flexibility that you would get that people might have got used to in this era of being able to work from home. But bootstrap companies are going to have to work a little bit differently. So, there’s some pros and cons there for the folks who are trying to find these workers. It might be easier to find people, but they might not have the right mindset.  

Rob Walling:
To give you some data, we just released a State of Independent SaaS Report for 2024. Folks can download that at stateofindiesaas.com. In it, let’s see, I’m on page 18, it says, “85% of companies we surveyed,” so we surveyed 700, almost 700 bootstrap, mostly bootstrap SaaS companies, all MicroConf, TinySeed type companies. “85% reported that the difficulty in hiring people is either the same or easier than last year.” That feels about right. Most people are saying it’s same or easier. In addition, this was I think the first year where we saw hiring, maybe it was the first time we surveyed because it was two years ago, but, “We see that 30% fewer companies are hired in 2023 compared to 2021.” 

Again, this is bootstrap companies. We know there was a big VC bubble and there was a lot of hiring and now there’s layoffs, but it certainly happens across our type of bootstrap companies as well. The plan to hire in the next 12 months was down 17%. So, even though it, to me, anecdotally and obviously from these numbers, it appears that it is easier for bootstrappers to hire. I think a lot due to what I already mentioned, which was like, there’s a bunch of layoffs and there’s a lot of back to the office, and that’s all… Being remote has always been a bootstrapper advantage. Einar Vollset, you have anything to add?  

Einar Vollset:
No. I think that’s pretty much it. I mean, I think certainly the return to work is part of it. I also think there’s less competition from the larger firms, who back in the boom days were just hoovering up every talent and not talent in the world. That’s not been happening and layoffs have been happening. So, people aren’t just like, “Why would I ever work for a bootstrap thing? Anyone can get a job paying crazy money at Big Co.” Those days are not there anymore. So, that might be part of it too.  

Rob Walling:
Our next topic is a question from Twitter, and I don’t know if I want to answer the exact question. So, the question is from @SunglassesFace, name is Orly. “What change in mindset do you notice between founders with 100 MRR, 1,000 MRR, 10,000 MRR or 100,000 MRR?” The reason I want to change the question is, we’ve watched dozens of founders hit all of those milestones and they’re the same founder. The mindset doesn’t shift that much. You look at a Ruben Gomez or a Ron Galperin or Gymdesk. It’s like, the mindset from the start was, do things really fast, ship a lot of… Be mostly correct. Be right most of the time, have a good gut feeling. You do that when you’re at 100 and you do that when you’re at 100,000 MRR. But I don’t think that’s what Orly @SunglassesFace is asking. I almost think the question is, how do the challenges that you face differ from 100 to 1,000, to 10,000, to 100,000 MRR?  

Tracy Osborn:
Well, I think it’s a misconception, because some folks, I think, when they’re at the early stage, it’s like, “Is my mindset wrong? Is the reason why I’m not growing, is it because of my mindset?” So, I think that question stems from this misconception and that’s what you’re trying to explain. I just wanted to harp on that thing, is that there’s a lot of things to do. It’s not necessarily just mindset, you have to have a growth mindset, but that growth mindset is going to be there at every stage.  

Rob Walling:
I agree. With that in mind, Einar, what do you think the changes are? We don’t even have to go through all four of these. But when someone’s at 100 MRR versus 10,000 MRR, let’s contrast those to start. What are the different challenges?  

Einar Vollset:
I don’t know. At that stage, I don’t know that there is a difference, because I think it’s not that different. There’s a right, I think, strongly opinionated, there’s a right mindset and it’s just, move fast and just do a lot of… Just when it’s working, keep doing more of the stuff that’s working. I think what I observe, and maybe it’s because of how I operate and what I do, I think there’s more of a break at above even these numbers of what he’s talking about. I think what we very commonly see is, I think a lot of people, whether they’re at 100 or 10,000 or whatever MRR, they have this view that, “Oh, once I get to a million in ARR,” 83.33 whatever it is in MRR, “Then everything will be great. That’s it. I’ve made it. I just need to do more of the thing that I’ve already proved, proven to make it.” 

Actually, Jason Cohen did a great piece on this, talking about, well, I think he called it the Elephant Curves or something like that. It’s basically the myth of continuous exponential growth. What he says is, I think he used the example of HubSpot. He says, “Look. It looks from the outside like it just is up and to the right graph, and that’s how they did it. They just did more of whatever it was that was working. But actually, if you look underneath the covers, it’s one growth curve stacked on top of the other. Where it’s basically, they launched a new product and then they added another channel, and then they launched another product, and another channel.” I think the biggest mindset change that I’ve observed repeatedly is, people, once they get past about a million in ARR, or two or three, they get to the stage they’re like, “Oh, my growth is stalling out now. What I was working, my market is saturated, my niche is saturated.” 

The mindset change becomes, “Okay. I’ve got to do something new again. Not just a thing that was working. I’ve got to go after another thing and another thing and another thing.” That, I think, is the biggest mindset change. The people who fail to do that, quite often they end up in a situation where, because all growth decays over time, they end up in a scenario where they have a great business that’s growing 100%, and then they have a great business growing 40%, and then they have a great business that’s growing 15%, and then they have a business that’s not really growing, and then it starts to decline and now they’re like, “Crap. I should have sold this a couple of years ago.” I think that happens a fair bit.  

Rob Walling:
Tracy, what do you think about these revenue MRR levels? Do you agree with Einar? He was saying 100 to 1,000, or 100 to 10,000 is similar. Because I think there’s a difference at 10,000, but I’m curious to hear what you think between these levels.  

Tracy Osborn:
Yeah. What I have in my notes was, early stage is finding product market fit, middle stage is pouring fuel on those areas at work, and then later stage is broadening out. So, disagreeing with what Einar says, and I’ve seen this as well, is that folks get to that certain level of one million in ARR and they’re like, “No. I don’t want to do it again.” It’s like, yeah. You have to figure out how to do it again, but in a different area. So, I guess that’s a mindset thing, is of just that growth mindset, being aware that you’re going to have this wonderful growth and the mindset of knowing that it will end, and therefore being able to react or prevent it and react appropriately before that down curve happens. That is something that we’ve seen a lot of folks run into that trap.  

Rob Walling:
Right. Looking ahead at your plateaus.  

Tracy Osborn:
Mm-hmm. Don’t wait till the plateau happens.  

Rob Walling:
Yeah. I talk about it in three phases, and there are more than this, but the first phase is building a product. Second phase is building a business, third phase is building a company. Usually I think of product as being zero up to usually about 10K MRR, to be honest. It’s like, “I have a product. I’m trying to figure out, does anybody want this? Can I sell it? What’s the pricing?” You’re just fumbling. You have almost no product market fit, or very weak product market fit. Between 10 and 20, I feel like, “Oh, now I have revenue, I’m probably going to have expenses. I have to start thinking about this as a real business a bit.” Then I think from that point up until somewhere in the 50 to 100K, that’s where you’re building the business. Then 50 to 100K, I think you’re building a company. That’s when it’s like, “I need really good people. I probably need to start thinking about hiring managers and delegating a lot more,” because usually in a SaaS company, you have a lot of folks on your team.  

Tracy Osborn:
Not going to be the first person on the ground anymore, relying on other people. A lot of things are going to change at that point. The mindset to be aware and ready for those changes too.  

Rob Walling:
Hiring senior developers can really move the needle in your business, but if you bring on the wrong person, you can quickly burn through your runway. If you need help finding a vetted, senior, results-oriented developer, you should reach out to today’s sponsor, Lemon.io. For years, they’ve been helping our audience find high quality global talent at competitive rates. They can help you too. Don’t just take my word for it, listener Dylan Pierce had this to say about working with Lemon.io. “The machine learning engineer they helped me hire was very professional and even learned a new tech stack to set up an environment to train and deploy machine learning models. He documented his work clearly so I could train it in the future with additional data. I’m super happy with the results.” 

Long time listener, Chaz Yuen, hired a senior developer from Lemon.io and said his hire, quote, “Definitely knew his stuff, provided appropriate feedback and pushback and had great communication, including very fluent English. He really exceeded my expectations.” Chaz said he would definitely use Lemon.io again when he’s looking for a senior level engineer. To learn more and get a 15% discount on your first four weeks of working with a developer, head to Lemon.io/startups. That’s lemon.io/startups. 

Our next topic is how to identify what really moves the needle. This is a question from SanderFish on X Twitter, and it was asked directly of me. I posted, I don’t know, it was about a month ago, and said, “Hey, ask some more intermediate and advanced questions.” I like this one. SanderFish says, “Often it feels like SaaS success is an accumulation of many small decisions and improvements over time.” Which I would 100% agree with. “How do you identify what really moves the needle?” Tracy Makes, how do you identify?  

Tracy Osborn:
I like that Einar brought up earlier in the last question, talking about founders constantly working on new things and getting things done. In that, folks also need to be… They don’t need to lose track of analyzing how well those things do. It doesn’t have to be that hard. As things are going through, make sure that you’re adding the right referral links or whatnot, so that as you’re setting up these marketing campaigns and working on three things at once, that later on you can spend 15 minutes going back and being like, “All right. Cool. I did these three things. Now I can track all these things that are happening.” 

Sometimes people can get into this thing where they’re like, “Got launch, launch, launch. Do things, do things, do things,” and it’s like what actually was working? What was actually worth the amount of time that you were spending on this? You have to remember to do maybe a monthly cadence of looking back at what you have done in that month and then analyze what things are happening. So, you actually can identify what’s moving that needle. That’s hard to do as a founder because you have to be constantly launch, launch, launch, and it’s really easy to forget to do that analyzing process.  

Rob Walling:
What do you think Einar? How do you identify what really moves the needle?  

Einar Vollset:
I think while important, it’s more important just to do more… Then if things are going well, then great. So, I think there’s two hurdles for most founders that I see, that I work with. The main problem isn’t trying to figure out what’s working, it’s doing enough experiments so that something is working. Look, if they do 25 things and then two or three of them are working, but they’re not totally sure which ones are working, but they’re just doing it, that’s much better than what most people do. Which is they overanalyze and do two things and neither of them work, or goes backwards. That being said, I do think it’s important, to Tracy’s point, once you have some stuff that is working, it’s got to be like, “Okay. What do I double down on? What is it that’s really working?” 

Because the other thing that, mistakes I see people make is, they’ll read the Traction book from Gabriel Weinberg, and they’ll try a bunch of things and something’s working, and then they figure out something’s working, but then they won’t really double down on it and try to squeeze everything out of it and really explore how big that success can be. Instead, they wander off and pick something else to do, and then another thing and another thing. It’s the point where, look. This was working, just double down on the thing and just make sure you squeeze the full growth out of it.  

Tracy Osborn:
It’s like shiny object syndrome, because it is really fun to launch a new marketing campaign. So, it’s just like, “Oh, how to set up this thing, how to learn a new thing and do this kind of thing,” and forgetting to really track on and follow up on those things.  

Einar Vollset:
I think sometimes people have this, once they have this working, I know that I do this sometimes, it’s like if they have something that’s working, they’re always like, “Great, it’s working. I always know that I can rely on that and do more of it if it’s working. So, I’m just not going to do that because I have it in my back pocket. Then I’m going to go do these other things and explore more so I have more things in my back pocket.” I think that’s a mistake most of the time. Particularly for growth channels and things like that, it’s like, no. This is working now, but you have no idea, does it work 50% more? Does it work 5,000 times more? You don’t know until you really try. So, I think that’s a mistake people make.  

Rob Walling:
Yeah, it’s funny. Tracy said, launching a new marketing campaign is fun, so is launching a new product. It was just building more, so is writing features. I think there are a lot of rules of thumb and a lot of frameworks and guidelines that I talk about on this show, we talk about in MicroConf and obviously to TinySeed companies that are in my book, whatever. You should probably listen to them in most cases, if you don’t know anything else. It’s like, this is a great start. It’s like, learn the rules, then master the rules so that you know when to break them. But if you never learn the rules, then you don’t know that you shouldn’t start a B2C two-sided marketplace with Freemium and launch seven products and blah, blah, blah, and try to do viral marketing on my social media following. 

I think I’m going to build some incredible business. It’s not impossible what I just said, but the odds are stacked dramatically against you. So, listen to those who have gone before you. When I think about trying to figure out what’s going to move the needle, usually I think, what has moved the needles for others? A million things I could do, but founders who have it working, what are they doing? Then try to generalize that. So, I look at the best, most successful founders. I mean, I was doing this as I was coming up and saying, “What’s Jason Cohen doing? What is Hetan Shah doing? What is these people who are building incredible businesses?” Einar, you have to discount it. They’re not Steve Jobs and they’re not Elon Musk. I am a bootstrapper. I can’t model myself after those people. I can’t even model myself after Basecamp, because I didn’t launch a SaaS in 2004 that gets… What did they say? 10,000 trials a month or something. 

It’s just, I’m not in that situation. They can do stuff, like not market, like not sell, because they’re in a luxurious position, and good for them. The luck and timing were one and two, Jason Fried told me that for their success. Unless I can replicate luck and timing, I can’t, then I need to look at folks who do it and grind it and figure it out, like Eran from Gymdesk, like Ruben from [inaudible 00:25:00]. There’s dozens and dozens of TinySeed founders that I would look at and try to model. That’s why I write the SaaS Playbook. You can buy it for $10 on Kindle, read through that. If I were to try to prioritize stuff, I would start with the stuff in that book, not the stuff that I see people yapping about on Twitter. 

The approach is where it’s like, build an audience. Yeah, great, that’s fun. But it’s not for your SaaS company. Build your network, not your audience. So, I don’t know. I prioritize things by first trying to have some type of framework to limit its infinity, things I could try, down to 20, 50. There’s only that many. Then I would, if I have a gut feel, a strong gut feel, I would do it myself. Otherwise, I would get people involved. I’d say, “Einar, what do you think I should do?” I’d say, “Tracy, Ruben, Eran, what do you think I should do?” People in my mastermind, advisors, whoever, “What do you think? I am down to this list of three now, which should I try first?” Get an outside counsel and then go for it.  

Tracy Osborn:
Yeah. It helps get you out of that tunnel vision and out of that, “Oh, I’m really excited about doing one thing because that’d be more fun,” versus the other thing that’ll actually move the needle.  

Rob Walling:
That’s the thing that… I talk about this all the time, where it’s the ice cream versus spinach. What’s really yummy is ice cream. I want to lose weight, but I want to eat ice cream and not spinach. Those two don’t go together. So, when someone tells me, “I want to grow a SaaS company.” “Great. Here’s my advice,” blah, blah, blah. They’re like, “Oh, but I want to do B2C and I want to launch seven products and see what sticks.” I’m like, “So you want to eat ice cream and think that you’re going to be…” That’s my analogy that I make. Implicit in this question, how do you identify what really moves the needle? 

Honestly, what moves the needle is often not ice cream. What moves the needle is often not what we want to do, unfortunately. There are examples of folks who did exactly what they want. It’s like the one person who built a social media following, and maybe there’s three. Built a social media following and also just writes a lot of code, and that works. We all want to do that as builders, but usually what moves a needle is not that.  

Einar Vollset:
Because I mean, the reason everyone’s heard of them is because it’s noteworthy.  

Rob Walling:
Exceptions.  

Einar Vollset:
It’s like, holy moly. Look at this guy. He’s on the beach in Thailand and he’s got seven products and they’re making $50,000 each, and it’s working really well. Everyone’s like, “Oh, I’ve got to follow this guy. Look at this.” Well, yeah. But for each one of those guys, there’s 500 people who are running a million ARR, or five million ARR, or 100 million ARR businesses that did nothing of that.  

Rob Walling:
Yeah. It’s a trip. It is a survivor bias. I’m not taking anything away from people who’ve made that work, but it really reminds me of a rock star or someone who gets into the NBA. Like there’s 500 NBA players, I believe, approximately. It’s like, how many people each year try to get into the NBA? That’s what this feels like. It’s that hit based, you’re decreasing your odds. Those are not the things you should be working on. The blocking and tackling of what we talk about on this podcast, and what we talk about at MicroConf and what I put in my books is-  

Einar Vollset:
Can you tackle in basketball? Is that allowed?  

Rob Walling:
I switched metaphors to sports ball, to football.  

Einar Vollset:
Sports ball.  

Tracy Osborn:
Nerd.  

Einar Vollset:
Blocking and tackling in basketball would be hilarious. We should do that.  

Rob Walling:
We should have full contact basketball.  

Einar Vollset:
There you go.  

Rob Walling:
On that note, we are going to wrap up today’s Hot Take Tuesday. Tracy Osborn, you Are Tracy Makes on Twitter, and also one of the folks behind the @TinySeedFund Twitter account, X, Twitter. This is what I’m calling it now, but…  

Tracy Osborn:
It actually works out pretty well when you say X Twitter, it’s like-  

Rob Walling:
Like E-X-Twitter.  

Tracy Osborn:
Exactly. Used to be. Company formerly known-  

Rob Walling:
Formally known. Yeah.  

Tracy Osborn:
Because when I say X, it’s like, what are you talking about? So, I keep saying X, Twitter. Einar Vollset, you are Einar Vollset on Twitter, mostly Tweeting about the San Francisco Giants.  

Einar Vollset:
San Francisco Giants. Who are playing really badly at the moment, but will turn it around.  

Rob Walling:
It’s possible. It could happen. Thanks you two. Thanks for joining me.  

Einar Vollset:
Thanks for having me.  

Tracy Osborn:
Thanks for having me.  

Rob Walling:
Thanks again to Tracy and Einar for joining me on the show this week. Thanks to you for listening to, Startups For the Rest of Us. Whether you’ve heard six episodes, 60 episodes, or 600, it’s great to have you back. I enjoy spending every week in your earbuds. This is Rob Walling, signing off from episode 727.